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thanks @Angst_Atlas for chiming in!!

@mikeleebirds - there are plenty of other matrix mixers of a similar size available - both as DIY and factory built

I've got both a york modular one and a pusherman one - both DIY - iirc they are 10hp each and use trimmers - personally I'd rather have knobs and take up more space - so if/when I buy another one I'll probably go for the doepfer or possibly even the low-gain...

I don't see any modules that are particularly wide there...

any smaller and you'd lose ergonomics or functionality and you have plenty of space to have both of those which are equally important... at least imo

Hi Jim,

Sorry - had the rack private while I worked on them. They're public now.

Ah yes, the good old phone. Now there's an idea! Makes mental note - kick out the scope. Is there scope software for a phone as well? But then I'll really need an audio interface in the rack, e.g. that Expert Sleepers in my big setup.

there are definitely scope apps for iPhone - probably for Android too -but you'd have to find the one that works for you - can't say I've ever needed a scope though in 5-6 years of modular - I'd rate them as nice to have, rather than crucial - except for a few DIY builds

In my home studio, I have a small Motu M4 interface. It has 2 XLS/TRS and 2 line in. It's confirmed DC coupled by Sweetwater so I can use that there. But I expect only the XLS/TRS to be DC coupled, so it's very limited. May want to invest anyway in that case.

nb there's dc-coupled and there's dc-coupled - something advertised as such will definitely be dc-coupled on outputs - but not necessarily on inputs...

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

Good to know. I also like the fact it has actual drumpads instead of just buttons.

they're much more like buttons - MPC style pads, I guess - not like drumpads you can hit with a drumstick!

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

Yeah, I'm not aiming at more. There's plenty of oscillators in the big version but they can be used for modulation as well.

-- Arrandan

I try to keep lfos separate - every time I buy a module that'll do both - I end up using them for vco's - tides, tides2, cali - all work as both lfos and/or envelope generators - but sound great as vcos - so they end up being used as vcos - and I try to forget that some of the lfos, filters, envelope generators etc I have can also be used as vcos - otherwise I'd end up with patches with all vcos and virtually nothing left for modulation, filtering etc

I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc)
-- JimHowell1970

Reminds me of the derp from IBM back in the late 1950s that said that, in total, the world will really only need five or six computers. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmno.

-- Lugia

and Bill Gates saying no-one will ever need more than 640k of memory (or whatever it was)...

I think I've got 6-7 computers (only use 1 at the moment though and 5 are effectively antiques) - and a phone that's (near) infinitely more powerful than any computer that was around in the 50s...

Please make the racks public - no click through!!!!

Hello,
BTW, Jim, your signature is completely right. If sound sources are the organs, effects the muscles and sequencers the brains, then utilities are the skeleton. It's been a very enlightening week.

I'd say that the utilities are the cardi- vascular system - cases are the skeletons perhaps

For the case - you were right that a single 84HP row is much too limiting. I looked at cases and because the Mantis is currently hard to get, I found the Intellijel 7U 104HP stealth case, which is portable and has feet and some external connections. It's double the price of the Mantis, but with its metal build and lid, I like it a lot.

New version is here:

This is the basic version. I made a full version, which I'll link to at the bottom. That came out at over $6000, which is way beyond what I want to spend. So I stripped it down, mostly by removing features (some oscillators, the stereo bit) and sometimes by replacing bits by more cost effective parts (like the Droid for the Temps Utile or the chip osc + noise by a combo). That took the price down to about $2500, which is more manageable.

there's no need, in fact it's advisable, to buy everything at once - $2.5K, is more than enough to start with -in all likelihood you'll keep adding bits and pieces until you've spent at least $6k, if not considerably more - $100/month for over years is $6k - and 100/month is reasonably manageable... it's a few beers less a week,or so...

Top row is all utility. In this basic version, I'm using the Quadratt as the mixer. I like the idea of mixing patches with an external mixer, but on the road, I want to be able to output a single wire. I added the zeroscope for tuning and the occasional waveform check. It's much more cost-effective than a Mordax and I don't need much more. I filled it up with more utility that will always come in handy.

i'd spend a bit more and get a dc-coupled interface - even if it's a used RME or something for $150 - that way you can use vcv rack - including the tuner and oscilloscopes in there!!! and forget about a scope in the case - the screen is tiny and you can use an app on your phone to tune..

First 3U row has the Temps Utile, LFO, oscillators, a filter and the basic Befaco line+headphone out with cue.

Second 3U row has some randomness & and/or to take out beats at random, then clock div/mult. The Harmonaig is lots of fun - I played with it in VCV Rack. It's a keeper. The Zadar - if you can't tell: I like modules that are dedicated to one purpose, but offer lots of functionality within that scope. So I won't be adding an O&C, but I do have the FX AID (great suggestion!). Finally, a fun spring to round it off.

As for playing it, I'm looking at a hardware sequencer, preferably with pads. I mentioned Torso T-1 but it's all sold out and unavailable until August... I'm going to be using it starting April so I'm looking at an alternative. The Beatstep Pro is on my list, as is the SQ-64 and a couple of others.

beatstep pro is good - I've got one - works great... mostly because it's been around for a long time - and they fixed nearly all the bugs- I've heard of a few issues with the sq64...

So what do you think of this new setup?

The full version adds Mutable Ears+Rings, some more OSCs, filters, fx & VCAs, stereo (delay for imaging and pan for the rest) and the pretty impressive Droid with some expansions from Der Mann Mit Der Maschine. I love how versatile it is, yet dedicated to CV production and manipulation. There's an extra 3U row which corresponds to a 3U 19" row I have available in my studio rack. In it, I have the modules from the basic setup that I replaced by higher end modules (Temps Utile and the Feedback Static) as well as audio and MIDI interfaces. Here it is:

-- Arrandan

I'd try to aim for 3-4 voices max in a case this size - it's enough - otherwise there's not enough space for everything else you'll need...

I've got about 10 plus a bit of percussion - basically another 2 -3 modules - in something like 1000 hp and it seems about right to me...

not anxiety - more like oh there's a part of the rack that's unusable... that was a waste of money, wasn't it - lucky the OP came here before buying and can hopefully be guided away from them...

dunno - but if you look at the product page you can see who submitted it - maybe you could DM them? they probably have a good idea

or batumi, branches, zadar

or tides, a matrix mixer (doepfer, 4ms vcam, a n other), fx aid xl

or stages, 3mia, 3vca

or beads, rings, pamelas new workout

basically any combination of sound modifiers, modulation and utilities

see the formula in my signature - it's a rough guide to building a balanced modular

I'd probably not add more than 1 or 2 more sound sources - possibly tides and rings - tides can double as a modulation source and rings as a sound modifier - otherwise you won't have space for the more interesting modules that you'll need to support them...

1) you're right that opening up into the pedal space is cheaper and 2) there's a ton more variety available in that space (both of which are interesting facts, I wonder why that is).
-- troux

there are loads more guitarists in the world than modular synthesists...
market bigger, production runs potentially bigger... cheap pedals are made from cheap components - thin metal or plastic enclosures etc etc circuits are often incredibly simple and small...
interesting/innovative pedals from boutique manufacturers are in the same ball park as modules -
as are rare out of production cool pedals - some can get very expensive - moogerfoogers, lovetone, klon etc etc

maths, veils, kinks

yeah - someone else going "go on, go on, spend money"... works wonders!

hahahahahaha...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/TriParMix--electro-harmonix-tri-parallel-mixer
-- Lugia

that looks cool - is it me or would it have made more sense for the sends and returns to be the other way round though??? ie send/return instead of return/send...

re: the case dilemma - I'd buy a second mantis - then you have space for all the modules that you already have and for the utilities that you need: more vcas especially - and then the 258t and blades may turn out to be a really useful second voice... (selling the verbos CO should easily fund both a used mantis and veils for example) if you arrange the modules well for your workflow then there'll be no need to swap things around and you can have a performance case and a studio only case - work out how to arrange them and it'll be easy to just pulll out the performance case whenever you want it (don't use the brackets though - otherwise you'll never move them!)

@Lugia - hehhe yeah I know what you mean... it's a pity they didn't see the coming of the b-company storm - and dump all their old 5u modules into eurorack at a reasonable price - like buchla with tiptop - but and I quote from moog "the eurorack market's just not big enough" (a few years back iirc) - you can see what they mean, to some extent - the last run of sub37s was 1500 units if I remember correctly from their instagram feed... and that's a synth that's been around a few years... so they tend to want products that sell in the 10K+ unit range rather than the 1-2k+ unit range - shame, really, but I think the boat's passed - unless they can find someone like tiptop or malekko (who did the roland modules) to do the work and just take the cash for designing and verifying...

they even have the moogerfoogers and cp251 that would be relatively easy to convert to eurorack as well as the system 55 etc modules...

Setting the stereo mixer and zeroscope aside for the moment. I went back through you notes where you mentioned a CP3. I didn't know what that was which may be the reason I forgot about it. Now it starts to make sense. I pulled Plaits and put back in the Hats module and the Manhattan Analogue CP3.

Is this more in the direction of your guidance?

Yes, Dan

use the cp3 to mix the percussion - you can get a nice bit of grit from the cp3... then you can send too a mono filter...

nb - the manhattan analogue cp3 is now called the DTM - moog's lawyers wrote them a cease and desist...

kind of looking better

not convinced you need more stereo mixers unless the mixer has panning for mono inputs, which could be on a knob/trimmer and set and forget - for example pan hats slightly to the left or right to simulate someone playing or listening to a drum kit, otherwise you just end up with LCR mixing, which is fine... but not necessarily what you want/need all the time - or an auto panner, either patched from basic building blocks (an lfo, a mult, an inverter and a couple of vca channels) - or a dedicated module - I'd use the patching method if I wanted it as I don't really use auto panning - except for delays and the delay handles that for me...

NB mostly I just use centred mono percussion... which also means I only need a mono filter - if I want to filter percussion - before possibly sending to a mono->stereo reverb

plaits is great - but I can't imagine using a smaller version that the real thing... I'd've stuck to the 2hp hats - or found something else 4hp or under just to do hats - I think plaits is also adding too much in too small a space - it points towards too many voices in too small a space (for me at least)... a simple percussion kit (peaks and hats), sto, dixie and elements (4 voices) is pushing it in this size case imo - but adding plaits, kind of pushes it more out towards 5, which is definitely too much because there's too little in the way of support modules...

but do remember - I'm only giving advice and saying what I'd do and how I think - it's not prescriptive and at the end of the day you have to do what you want and learn by your own mistakes...

when they meet the rules:

https://www.modulargrid.net/e/forum/posts/index/801

yes but an adsr is a very specific envelope...
they are usually used for keyboards - not necessarily something that you always need in a modular synth - a lot of people just use AD envelopes - or more complex ones, like from zadar...

Hi Jim:

Perhaps a little background would be in order:
I have been playing synth modelers and samplers most of my life.

hahaha - you know that copy and paste trick I recommended above - didn't take my own advice!!! hahahaha

anyway - me too - no samplers though - but synths, guitars and recording equipment - starting at 7 with guitar - and you can work out how old I am from my username... I was staring at my trio of moogerfoogers and the cp251 controller, remembering seeing a eurorack synth in a music store that had closed and reading I think the first article about eurorack in sound on sound...

I have Beatstep Pro (4 voice cv/gate/mod) sequencer, Erica Synths Bassline desktop (with LFO, Filter, Envelop and VCA), TR-8s. Plus loads of guitars, keyboards, and Ableton Push which I run through Ableton Live; and several acoustic string and wind instruments.

similar but logic and no wind instruments! and less guitars - some went to fund my first video synth modules...

I am struggling with what I want this project to be and you are seeing that playout. I love ambient but afraid I may get bored. I love generative sounds. But ultimately would like to be able to coordinate everything for melodies and harmonies backing vocals. Also, I'd like to be able to just create Eurorack music as a standalone project.

I think ambient and generative are huge catch alls - and either or both could keep a person interested for a lifetime if they were so inclined...

I'm trying to keep the ES-9 in mind but it is tough.

please explain further...

As you know I jettisoned the sampler in favor of Pam/Peaks/Hat modules. Ableton has an amazing sampler that I can use. I needed to sub-mix my VCO voices which is why I went with Cockpit plus it has side chain compression (although now I realize I could have used DAW/ES-9).

not convinced this is a great use case for cockpit - and whilst I have compressor modules with side chain capabilities - I often just patch this up from basic building lock modules...

Anyway, I can return the Synthrotek models. I purchased them as DIY projects but are not opened and the sales manager has been wonderful to work with there. I like the QPAS mostly because I like Make Noise, and I wanted something different. But maybe I can fit a couple more VCAs (wasp?) in this space.

if it's not going to break the bank, keep them and use them as soldering practice - and debugging practice...

wasp's a filter not a vca!

I'll take another shot at this and see what you think.

I don't know how you became the sherpa for novice patchers like myself, but God bless you. You are just what I need. Thanks again for taking all the time to review and comment in a meaningful way on this layout.

All the best,
Dan

-- Dano

Never believed in a god to bless me - but thank you for the sentiment...

EDITED Feb 22nd 2022, 19:52

I wrote a really long reply, but when I was to submit I had been kicked off. UGH
I work on it again a little latter.
Thank you so much for your help
(I'll try the little "keep me logged in" button and see if it works)
-- Dano

np - it happens to us all - I have it at least once per day - best thing to do is select and copy all the response before posting - that way it's on the clipboard when you log in again - the keep me logged in checkbox doesn't function particularly well!!

3 U modules I have purchased in addition to the SV-1b are Maths and polivoks.

As an alternate sound source/oscillator I 6 hp version of braids seems like a highly recommended balance to the SV_1.

I wouldn't bother with a second voice in a case this size, personally

Veils and Batumi round it out.

good choices - download the 'maths illustrated manual' - it's a great learning tool and jumping off point for patch programming - one of the most powerful techniques in modular synthesis - work your way through it a few times and try and work out how and why the patches work!

Very likely will add O-CTRL as CV sequencer.

Clocksource can either be SV-1b, O-CTRL or DAW via MIDI.

or maths

Don’t have a clock divider per se. do I need one ( not likely to need precision from this rack ) ?
-- YoungNorway

maths again - just remember though maths, like most 'swiss army knife module' can often only be used for one thing at a time...

ok now the link is in - I can see stuff

cool you have peaks and clouds - great modules...

now I can rip into it

it seems very heavy on sound sources - not just the fact that imo there are too many in this size case, but they also take up too much space and there's not really enough support modules - sound modifiers, modulation sources and especially utilities - to do the number of sound sources justice...

top row:
Pams - good

now I'm assuming here that your intention is to use peaks primarily as a kick/snare - combined with the hats to make a simple percussion set up - nothing wrong with that - but I'd suggest a simple sub-mixer so you can process - filter etc the kit as one - maybe a cp3 type one that can add a bit of dirt (manhattan analog perhaps)

there's then 3 vcos - are you intending to use these as single voices? how are you going to shape notes - or are you just using them as drones? not enough vcas... not enough filters... otherwise if you are intending to use them to create a complex voice - again, there's no sub-mixing or waveshaping in the case & both the dixie and sto could benefit from sub-mixers in order to mix their waveforms before filtering etc - & I'd definitely drop the synthrotek - they don't have a good reputation for building reliable modules or customer support from what I've heeard and well ethically only the b-company really surpass them in scraping the bottom of the barrel

elements - great module - but in a case this size it's on the large size to put it mildly - I'd be tempted to switch it out for a rings - worthwhile comparing the 2 there's a lot of overlap...

es9 good - not used one but I hear they're great - can be used as an eoc mixer - if configured properly via midi (you might want an extra module to do this - or just diy some midi connectors into the case)

1u: NB I'd always get a 3rd 3u row over a 1u row the cost in terms of rails etc is the same but they only hold 1/4 of the functionality and I've never seen a compelling module that's only available in 1u & 3.5" is, well, only 3.5" - but others seem to like them...

o&c - it's popular... not convinced...

zeroscope - again not convinced - as you have the es9 I'd just use a free one in vcv rack - when needed - I've got an es8 and quite frankly I've never found a need for a scope yet in over 5 years

2 sub-mixers - it's a good start... but you've used one for the drums and one for dixie - you need more of these...

cockpit - well at least it's not as annoying as the 3u version - inputs aren't on stereo jacks... but I think it's kind of superfluous - in that it's over specified for a sub-mixer - and there's a mixer in the es9 and then there's the sputnik - but see below for that

bottom row:
evolution - a big filter - maybe too big in this size case

octone - hmm - looks complicated - and it only has one pitch out - which is fine but then I'd want a buffered mult to send the pitch accurately to different sound sources - personally I'd want a 3-4 track sequencer in here given the number of sound sources

qpas - again a big filter and too big - I think I'd want at least 3 filters given the number of sound sources - 1 for the percussion, 1 for the sto, 1 for dixie...

adsr - again synthrotek - see above - but do you really need a adsr? I'd want more envelopes -but I'd probably use Pams - and you have...

Maths - brilliant module - download the 'maths illustrated supplement' work your way through it a few times and use it as a jumping off point for patch-programming - one of the most powerful techniques in modular - but saying that I'd also want all the basic functionality duplicated in other modules - why? because when you use Maths for something interesting (ie something you've patch programmed it to do - bouncing ball etc etc) then you can't really use it for anything else - and if you use it as 2 basic envelopes/lfos and a couple of attenuverters - then you can't useit for anything interesting...

quad vca - good start - I'd want more - they're not just for audio - they're incredibly useful for modulation too - I'd go veils over this as it's got a few more useful features - ok it's an extra 2hp and a little more expensive - but it has 20db of gain so can be used as an external input, it has offsets and it is continuously variable between exponential and linear responses - the doepfer can be either linear or exponential iirc, but to change it you have to take it out of the rack and move jumpers.... pita

sputnik mixer - as far as I am aware this is another very difficult to get hold of module - sputnik may or may not be producing modules again... and I've also heard of reliability/build quality issues - but i don't know for certain - plus the es9 has mixing capabilities...

rosie - as I mentioned above I think this is discontinued - the xoh is the replacement - but do you really need an output module when you have the es9? I've never needed one other than for headphones - and there are smaller ways of dealing with that - and the es9 has headphone outs

it'd really help if you posted a link to the actual rack and not a patch based on it - no mouse-over infographics or click through...

you do realise that mutable instruments peaks and clouds are discontinued - I'm also pretty sure that the sputnik mixer and rosie are the same... both peaks and clouds are available as clones in various sizes - and both of them and the other 2 may be available as used modules - but it's generally better planning on modules that are available - clouds has been replaced by beads

there are midi interfaces with multiple cv/gate outputs on them... cv.ocd outside the rack or hex inverter mutant brain (which is the same but a module), for example - there are quite a few more! you would be able to send multiple channels of midi from Logic -> modular this way - might be an idea to read a few manuals and watch a few videos...

I don't have a es9, but I do have an es8 - which doesn't have midi - the idea behind them is to not use midi - but cv direct from the DAW - you would use a plugin in Logic - for example Expert Sleepers Silent Way - and generate pitch/modulation/triggers/gates directly in Logic and then send them to the outputs of the ES9 - the midi implementation, afik, in es9 is to control features of the es9 - such as an internal mixer

hope this helps

yes I agree about euclidean waves - but as a starter - I think it's better to get pams and then, if and only if, there is frustration with not being able to change euclidean ratios on the fly , get euclidean waves - Pams forces you a bit more to think about what you are doing, from what I can tell (not having euclidean waves) so may be a better learning tool too - rather than just wiggling away...

the rack looks very sound source heavy to me - not enough support modules to do justice to the sound sources...

I would want an extra row for utilities etc etc

see my signature, particularly the formula, for a rough guide to getting the most versatility out of a modular synthesizer for the least amount of cash

personally I like the tesseract tex-mix over the wmd performance mixer - it's significantly cheaper and more expandable and uses less power - I'm sure that the performance mixer is exceptional - but it is big and expensive and power hungry...

the advantage of these over the cockpit is that they have panning for mono sources to stereo, in the case of the wmd pm, this can be automated with an lfo*) - which allows you to put a mono source in the middle, fully left or fully right or somewhere in between - if you only have stereo inputs - then you only get the possibility of fully left or fully right - or both if you mult the signal (and then recombine using a special cable in the case of these cockpit modules)

the only "advantage" of the cockpits I see is that they have ducking - although imo this is better patched using envelopes, an inverter/polarizer/attenuverter, a small utility mixer and a vca - ie "modular synthesis" and not just "synthesis with modules"...

I see the 'mono/stereo/ios send/return' nature of these mixer modules to be a complete pain in the arse... I seriously would not want it in my rack... I'd be loosing any adapter cables in the pile of patch cables and/or confusing stereo cables with regular patch cables and wondering why my stereo field was competely shit constantly - ymmv, though

the cockpit modules only really stand up in a endorphin.es only set up and if you are willing to separate audio and cv - which is one of the advantages of eurorack over some other formats, in that it doesn't do this...

BUT saying that either way you need some smaller mixers like the 3*mia or shades or whatever - to use as sub-mixers... and then you get back to the mono/stereo patch cable malarky...

also at least one filter is a good idea - there are so many available and they are so personal, that I find it difficult to recommend them - I have a couple of ripples - which are rolandy/vanilla, various doepfer ones that are based on other classic filter designs (wasp, sem, moog) and a couple more - but they all impart their own characteristics and it's impossible to say x is better than y - as it's so personal - there are plenty of filter shootoout demos on youtube, which should give you a basic idea - what to look out for

*you can do this easily with a mult, a couple of vcas, an lfo and an inverter - if you want to patch it when needed - or buy cv-able panner modules if used constantly

I think you're experiencing a lot of confusion relating to what modules actually do - a lot seem to be in the wrong categories...

for example - source of uncertainty is a random modulation source, not a sound source as the other's are that you've classed as "sources", what you've classed as 'modifiers' some are modulation sources and plog - I'd class that as a utility - as I would compare2 (both logic), O&C I'd categroise with Pams, etc etc etc

take a look at my signature - the formula especially - it's designed as a rule of thumb for getting the most versatility from a modular synth for the least money...

also agree strongly with what @plragde says - also I heard, but don't know how correct this is that ColdMac can be used for both audio and cv, but not at the same time - so what looks like a great bundle of utilities - is actually only 1/2 as useful as it could be - wmd/ssf toolbox & mutable instruments kinks are very useful combined utility modules that are easier to understand and maybe easier to find - kinks either used or NOS in stores or as a clone (it's been discontinued for a while now)

The outputs don't go to the next input, rather they are mixed with the next output if unpatched.
-- adaris

important distinction!!

no still mostly the same problems

especially the mixing solution... the queen of pentacles is stereo out, the furtherrgenerator is lots of mono outputs of individual waveforms - these might need mixing, the godspeed has 2 mono outputs, the desmodus versio and the arbhar are stereo

other than the veils - good choice of vca btw, the cockpits are allegedly stereo, but on single jack (no idea how that works), feeding rosie, a stereo output! do you need a load of stereo cables that are specialist, either mono->stereo, or single stereo cables??

it just fails to work properly - no ability to sub mix waveforms - except for what's available onboard the actual vcos, no ability to convert mono to stereo... there's no panning - so the mono sources are only ever going to be hard left or hard right... no where in between...

& no filters?

no link?

yeah - veils is great - and mutable product support is outstanding - unfortunately it's 10hp - so 2hp over what the OP wants - but probably worth making the space for!

the older veils has been discontinued for nearly 2 years - the new one, veils (2020), saves 2hp and adds a couple of features, including offsets and sliders!

sounds like your instincts are reasonably good then...

take a look at and think about the formula in my signature - it's a quick and dirty, rough guide to getting the most versatility out of a modular for the least expense

too many sound sources - so completely unbalanced - especially with the massive sequencer
no filters
poor mixing solution
no real vcas
no mixing for cv
no utilities
no control

black panel maths are near unobtanium - maybe you can find a replacement panel...

it's not just Australia - module supply can be erratic at the best of times and the pandemic has made it worse, everywhere - but I wouldn't worry too much - start with an absolute minimum and add modules as and when and only after you thoroughly understand the modules you already have and how they interact

things I would note - some of the modules will be unusable in their current positions

I'd go with 2 fx aids, the dsp2 takes up a huge amount of space - which could be better used for other things

look at your mixing again: the eoc mixer is 4 stereo ins and there are no panning - all your sound sources are mono - or dual mono

not convinced about the unity mixers - I'd want some control

beads or typhoon - I wouldn't have both in this size rack

tbh probably too many voices in too small a case...

I don't have a neutron but...

the normalised (default) path should be something like vco -> sub-mixer -> vca -> vcf or vc0 -> sub-mixer -> vcf -> vca

saying that the obvious place to take your output from is the output labelled 'output'...

where are you trying to take your signal from?

maybe check the cutoff on the vcf...

My goal is to use the neutron and/or another synth like the Behringer Model D as my sound source(s) sequenced by the Black Seq which would be triggered by the Dnipro Dot to play rhythmically. I’ll then want to feed the sound sources into the dual fx for some reverb and delay which I’d then like to output into headphones or my audio interface to record into my DAW.

Let’s say I wanted to sequence osc 1 and osc 2 of the Neutron separately to the Black Seq CV1 and CV2 and basically have channel 1 and 2 of Black Sequencer triggered separately by Dnipro Dot. What would be the best way to go about this? Are there any additional modules needed to achieve this? At the moment, I’m only hearing one or the other triggered by the Dot for some reason. Perhaps I have it patched incorrectly.

If I wanted to sequence the Model D and Neutron, then would I need an audio/cv mixer? I assume I need something to sum the two signals together into one output so I could then patch into FX and then an audio interface module of some sort.

What module would you suggest for tracking into my DAW and listening through headphones? I was looking at something like the Intellijel μJack. Would you suggest any better alternatives?

Grateful for any help I could get!

-- Avesta

Black sequencer only has a clock input - so you can clock it from the dni pro and then use the internal per channel dividers to advance the sequences in the black sequencer - tbh, the dni pro is a bit superfluous in this set up - the black sequencer is very capable of doing all sorts of things - gate length per step, tieing notes/gates and playing different channels at different speeds etc

if you think you have it patched incorrectly maybe you could describe the patch - or better yet illustrate it in modulargrid - so we can take a look

mixer - just get a decent end of chain mixer that has send/return and headphones as part of the package

this way you can mix the original signals from the semis and layer in as much of the fx as you want - at the lower end a tesseract tex-mix master and 4*mono channels would probably work quite well - otherwise something like es9, which @sacguy71 suggested would can do the trick of both mixer and audio interface

most 1/2 decent modern audio interfaces should be able to cope with slightly attenuated modular level signals - so just a matter of watching your gain staging - levels not too high anywhere - and you should be fine to go straight into the audio interface from the mixers stereo outs

if you don't already have an audio interface (and want an external one instead of the es9) - go for one with at least 4 outputs - 2 for monitoring (these are usually copied to the headphone outs too) and 2 for sending audio back out to the modular - otherwise if you want to send audio back to the modular you won't be able to monitor through the audio interface - which may or may not be an issue for you, now, but next week it might be...

nb with the es9 - some people have issues on windows apparently, so if you're running windows you might want to do a bit more research than just simply reading the manual - works perfectly on macs from what I hear...

@wishbonebrewery - are you using favourites? I think one of the main reasons that you're having to consult the manual every time you use it - is that you're trying to use it for too many things... yes it can do lots, but as with everything often less is more!

you don't need a mutant brain for a BSP to talk to a modular - it's got cv/gate/velocity and trigger outputs already...

I would recommend a lot more research and thinking before spending any money - a couple of pointers:

in the first iteration - Pams can do euclidean - so not a lot of point with the euclidean circles too

in the second there's a melodic quantizer - scales, but no melodic voice or vco to use it to send quantized pitch to... and only the scales for pitch sequencing - I'd get frustrated with this...

how are you mixing? sub mixing before filters/effects and end of chain? ok I see the cockpit2 - but that's not really going to do a satisfactory job - spend some time thinking about how all the voices and effects will interact... are any stereo? do some mono sources need panning into a stereo field? no mixing for cv...

no vcas... why would you want/not want these?

I'd rather have a second fx aid than a pico dsp - awkward size 3hp and less versatile - but I don't think you need it, anyway...

take out everything except what you absolutely need and then add back slowly, justifying precisely why you want/need every module - ie do I need this and why?

take a look at my signature and ask yourself why? you've got way too many sound modifiers and possibly modulation sources - not a balanced rack even for a percussion rack - & I'm not sure that's 100% what you're after here - seems more confused than anything else

personally I would buy originals where possible...

they generally have better ergonomics and I prefer to give my money to original designers - after all they did most of the work - plus Emilie has been fantastic with support when I've needed it - and I think that they'll probably hold their value a bit better and be a bit easier to sell in the future, if the need ever arises

I generally think eurorack modules are small enough without shrinking them further and using trimmers instead of proper pots/knobs - as they are more difficult to use/less precise - but then I've got my average cost of racks down to under £1/hp - by DIYing cases and power supplies - so I don't care that much about rack space (and I've got quite a bit left over) - might need an extra power supply at some point - but that's not much - and I might buy a second mantis - which will put the average price up a bit...

I've got quite a few mutable instruments modules, but saying that I've also DIYed a few and have some left in my backlog - but they are all full size or bigger in a couple of cases - and personally I'm not keen on small smd soldering - especially electrolytic capacitors! so I doubt I'll buy anymore once I've finished the ones I have

cool - I'm not expecting anything that great - I just sometimes want to use a crash or ride or rimshot - everything else I have covered already - I can always do them in Logic anyway... but I'd like to be able to have them on tap...

patch programming!!!! it won't grab you until you try it...

Isn't that still achievable using multiple modules?

kind of - but it's also intrinsic to the module itself - which is important - self-patch-programming

yeah, I'd say most of the time its being used for the tape delay when it isn't sound recording, I've barely used any of its other functions! (then I got the fx aid and took some of the pressure off of it)

I have an fx aid xl - if igorrr ever gets round to the proposed xxl version (with a screen) I might buy another - and upgrade the one I have - don't like the algo swapping - so it's constantly in lofi mode!

Ive only just moved off of the stock config, but again I need to spend more time exploring what I can do with it.

I'm not in a rush to buy anything new at the moment, I've lots to learn about what I have!

that's good - I'm trying to persuade myself not to buy a crucible - and just to buy the components I need for my DIY backlog - or at least some of it... and go back and debug a few that don't work too well... and update my fx aid - to add the drum algos - really want crash, ride (& rimshot, not covered by the crucible) - but 1 at a time recording - rather than building everything and multi-tracking at once is a pita...

redundancy? don't understand the concept within modular - duplication of functionality is useful - multiple voices = sometimes the need for use of similar modules on each voice - especially when some of these functions are in multi-function modules...

Well, in this case I have more S&H available than I use, so buying Kinks doesnt feel efficient, I'd much rather but the Jornalogue compare 2 and feel like the space being occupied is more broadly useful to me.

use for modulation as well as pitch - they get used up pretty fast then - kinks is more than just s&h - but I understand

whats EAS? - not familiar!

Instruo's cascading logic module: https://www.modulargrid.net/e/instruo-eas

never had a desire to get any instruo - except maybe tan[h] - have (inexpensive) wavefolder habit due to video...

That is one of the reasons I don't have Maths, I'd rather use 20hp to have multiple components I can stitch together differently, and sometimes independently of each other.

No Maths is fantastic - get a maths - more than the sum of it's parts - see the 'maths illustrated supplement'!!! and all of the parts can be used independently!

Yeah, it just hasn't grabbed me at all.

patch programming!!!! it won't grab you until you try it...

I use my disting as a tape delay most of the time - even after buying a magneto to stop doing this!!! I'm a bit of a delay junky - lots of delay pedals too!

yeah, I'd say most of the time its being used for the tape delay when it isn't sound recording, I've barely used any of its other functions! (then I got the fx aid and took some of the pressure off of it)

I have an fx aid xl - if igorrr ever gets round to the proposed xxl version (with a screen) I might buy another - and upgrade the one I have - don't like the algo swapping - so it's constantly in lofi mode!

a matrix mixer

Is there a good in rack option for this, or is it better to go to a standalone mixer?

there are plenty of in-rack ones - doepfer, AISynthesis etc etc - I think the smaller they are the less useful - I have 2 smaller ones (10hp) and find them a bit fiddly due to trimmers, urgh, and wish I had a doepfer one - which I will one day - I have space for it (currently about 300hp available in my racks - mostly due to DIY backlog and useful balnk panels)

joranalogue compare 2 - great logic module...

I'll check it out!

I know what you mean about modules that already have xyz in them

I think I'm agreeing with you but using different words, then wondering what is the most efficient and basic ways to add those capabilities without introducing too much redundancy, does adding an EAS or Joranalogue compare 2 give me the additional logic and rectification to remove the contention on my existing modules? (although I've not actually used plog for rectification yet, so that might be a technique I should explore soon!)

redundancy? don't understand the concept within modular - duplication of functionality is useful - multiple voices = sometimes the need for use of similar modules on each voice - especially when some of these functions are in multi-function modules...

whats EAS? - not familiar!

That is one of the reasons I don't have Maths, I'd rather use 20hp to have multiple components I can stitch together differently, and sometimes independently of each other.

No Maths is fantastic - get a maths - more than the sum of it's parts - see the 'maths illustrated supplement'!!! and all of the parts can be used independently!

Disting and O&C are similar - you can only do 1 thing (or 2 with the ex/hemispheres) at a time...
-- JimHowell1970

Absolutely, that is why I'm looking at the quad quantiser to unlock the other O&C functions.
Disting I use as a quick fix to fill any gaps, and when its not being used for anything else I use it as a sound recorder

I use my disting as a tape delay most of the time - even after buying a magneto to stop doing this!!! I'm a bit of a delay junky - lots of delay pedals too!

a matrix mixer - really handy for: getting more complex modulation from what you alreaddy have (mult 4 modulation sources, get 4 more complex ones out), feedback patching (mix output of xyz module back into input), send/returns (send outputs of modules into inputs of effects and then mix outputs of effects back into original signal - useful for effects modules that don't have dry/wet controls)

joranalogue compare 2 - great logic module...

I know what you mean about modules that already have xyz in them - but usually it's part of something else - taking useful functions out so they can be used on their own is a good practice - so you always have that functionality available, even when using the module for something else - Maths is a great example of this - it's really powerful in itself and especially when patch=programmed to do something more interesting - much more so than using it as the individual functions it is made up of - which can be had individually for a relatively small amount of cash!

Disting and O&C are similar - you can only do 1 thing (or 2 with the ex/hemispheres) at a time...

so which case are you looking at

I'd seriously consider keeping the doepfer, getting rid of the pitts and it replacing with a couple of mantises, it's what I would do if I were you knowing what I know - if I ever buy another case it will be another mantis - best combination of cost/hp/good power/reputable company/standard screws - so knurlies! or just going DIY - and building a 12u/104hp case - I use befaco excalibus power supplies for my DIY cases - which are not that p0werful, but are good power - you might need 3 for 12u/104hp depending on the power draw of your modules

re utilities: take a look at my signature - it's a philosophy/concept for getting the most versatility for the least amount of money... not that I necessarily strictly follow it - or expect anyone else to, for that matter - but I do try to and I do hope that people take notice - because it does work - want more complex modulation - get a matrix mixer and some mults, want more sounds - get a new filter or a waveshaper or delay and parallel process the sound sources you already have... etc etc

*good power for me is clean enough up to video rates - as I do a lot of video synthesis - and need ripple free up to MHz for that not just the 10's of KHz needed for audio

see my post above and my signature then...

but remember that without a case & power, you can't do any of this - building cases under 6u/84-104hp doesn't work out much cheaper than buying one in my experience - & I've built 4 so far... the expensive bits - power and rails (& threaded inserts) take most of the cost

and don't skimp on power - uZeus can be noisy & gets hot - it uses the rails as a heat sink so you need metal rails - and is potentially subject to RF interference due to using a flying bus board...

seriously consider going a bit bigger (6u/104hp) and the befaco excalibus power supply - you'll be set for a while and have enough space to get full size modules - better ergonomics = nicer synthesizer to play with...