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and another vote for the Mantis - by far the best option for a case based on price/hp/reputation of manufacturer/decent power supply... also incredibly portable - I've dragged mine all over the place - by car, plane, train and bus... and that's in the newer bag - there's also a 3rd party suitcase available...

c'mon dude, post the link to your public rack, not just a shitty jpg!!!

I've never bothered checking the voltage of a signal & don't really have a way of doing it other than a multimeter

I usually attenuate modulation anyway & what's the worst that can happen in eurorack? probably that the signal will clip... & as it's not audio...

I'd say keep maths and add batumi - get a bigger case - a mantis is really only just big enough for 3 voices - you need to add more utilities - mixers, vcas, offsets, attenuators, logic etc etc these add versatility for relatively little cash - see my signature!

EDITED Sep 15th 2022, 23:48

and those tiny gaps are great for ventilation...

It's good to see someone not only taking advice, but also seeing the reasoning behind it in action...

have fun!!

I wouldn't worry about selling modules too much - often it's difficult to work out exactly what modules are right for you until you actually try them with your other modules...

as for multi-track recording probably the easiest way is to use a es3/8/9 or bored brain optx depending on the audio interface that you already have - as these are designed to work with modular levels, although quite a lot of regular audio interfaces will work perfectly well with just attenuated (possibly in the audio interface itself) signals

yeah just a gate at the start of a sequence should do the job..

as for sending the reset signal to multiple modules, a passive mult (or stackcables, or headphone splitters) should work perfectly, it's a bit of a waste using the buffered mult from links - better for pitch (and potentially if you are re-patching triggers on the fly)

I generally only reset at the start of a track, especially when layering multitrack recording - so manually stop/arm things - black sequencer, BSP, sinfonion and logic (pams is set up to reset by logic not sending a clock for a while and then receiving one)

No Problem

I think you'd be much happier with a bigger case and bigger modules - plus it'll give you some space to expand into, which is always incredibly useful

small cramped modules with trimmers instead of bigger modules with (mostly) regular sized knobs are fine for set and forget but a real pain for wiggling - especially as what you already have is predominantly normal knobs!!!

I'd grab a tiptop mantis and look for bigger modules if I were you...

to me it looks very cramped and I think you are trying to do too much in too small a space...

an external mixer that can handle different levels would be a good idea... I have a Yamaha MG series mixer I bought 15 years ago or so - inexpensive and handles eurorack level and line level easily

EDITED Sep 7th 2022, 12:28

I'd start with a bigger case - there is no room here to expand into - & you will almost definitely need that - get a tiptop mantis - best bang for buck (hp/cost/decent power/manufacturer reputation) and save yourself some cash in the long run - buying 2 small cases is a lot more expensive than a single mantis!

I'd also seriously consider a pachinko (mutable marbles clone) over the Turing Machine - it's similar to having 3 turing machines in a single module + random + 3 gates - which are all very handy + it has an internal clock - which iirc tm doesn't - so stops you using up one of the EoR/EoC trigger outs from maths as a clock

I'd generally agree with dubstepjoris about mutable instruments modules - when you could still buy them easily - buy the real thing (so Emilie gets paid), but now that they are almost impossible to buy new then clones are almost all that's available - there may be a few Plaits in the wild - so buy one if you can - same for veils over the uVCA - you will almost definitely need more than 2 vcas!!!

There are also manufacturers that make full size Mutable clones - personally I would go for these - as the ergonomics of mutable instruments modules are near perfect

NP!

try this workaround

create a large rack that holds everything

when looking at that rack and you filter modules on "my collection" the number of copies of each module in that rack will be displayed

just create a big rack and throw everything in, including duplicates...

One module I would recommend considering adding to this setup now is some sort of effects...like the FX Aid Pro or XL (which unfortunately seem to be hard to find these days). Not sure what HP you have available but definitely something to consider for that "get off from work, get a patch going, and groove" jamming :)
-- jb61264

good call there - especially the pro version - much easier to use when you can see what you are doing!!

Hi Jim,

PAM clock is on 120 BPM. I am currently sending triggers to 3 sequencers (stepper acid, metropolix, cyrcadian ryhthm)

Output multipler are set a 1x.

The sequencers are running very very slow (30 bpm to my ears). If i want them to run at 120 BPM i need to set the PAM modifiers at 4x.

Thanks
Mat
-- abstractrhythms

it sounds like your sequencers have their ppqn set to 4 (or some other value) and not one then, which you are expecting... 'clock' is often set higher to maintain stability

it's the same as if you want stable triggers, use a faster clock & a divider and not slow clock and a multiplier...

EDITED Sep 2nd 2022, 13:24

how do you mean exactly?

is this when clocking another (sequencer) module - in which case maybe the ppqn of that module is the issue...

or is it that you are trying to clock pams with 1/4 notes and the ppqn is set to 4 - try clocking with 16ths

or is it that you are expecting to trigger something like hats at 16ths?

remember bpm is 1/4 notes per minute not 16ths

Thanks for the response!

I do have an audio interface, but having done some research, I think an output module would certainly help me.

HAHAHA - to some extent they are marketing snake oil - 1st try without at all (probably will work fine), if you experience clippping (unwanted distortion) then try some passive attenuators (always useful) - if still not satisfied then try an output module...

Feel free to tell me to just go reading, but do you have any advice on paring back? I'm having difficulty imagining that I'll enjoy making music with pretty much one voice. I guess there's always the option of building a single voice with a lot of modulation possibilities, and filling in the rest of things in the DAW itself.

I'd start with (from the modules you think you want) Pams, Maths**, the erica vco, a filter, a quad vca - add a buffered mult and a module that does - mixing, inverting, attenuation - something like a happy nerding 3mia, if you can find one get it... yes I know maths has that built in - but see the 'footnote' - you want this on top of what maths provides, trust me...

pams can generate random quantized pitch voltages as well as providing clock and envelopes

the idea is to slew (reduce the rate of change of) the learning curve so that you are not overwhelmed and can properly learn the modules that you have before buying anymore... once you feel that you know those modules inside and out and how they interact with each other then add one or 2 more modules and repeat the process and so on...

it's not that this is mandatory - it's just a tried and tested method... and it applies to modular synthesis (using basic building block modules to synthesize sounds***) and to what I call synthesis with modules (use complex modules to reach the same goal) or anywhere in between... which is probably where I have (and probably most people) end up

*no plan survives contact with the enemy - which is you, btw!!

**download the 'maths illustrated supplement' work your way through it a few times - it'll take a while - a few weeks or months probably - work out why, what and how it is doing what it does for each patch... and then use this as a jumping off point for your own experiments

***for example use a cascading vca, an lfo and a handful of basic utilities to patch up a vc crossfader or a vc panner or a compressor, instead of buying a crossfader module, a panning module or a compressor - as you don't necessarily need these al the time, but you might want them now and then - in other words always ask can I patch that with what I've got without compromising anything else, before buying a new module - which might end up with you then buying another set of cascading vca, lfo, various utilities instead of the dedicated module as it's more versatile

I appreciate the reminder to go slow--so long as I get a decent case, I'll always have room to grow
-- vandewhatering

indeed, and there's always another case - I have 8!!

tiptop mantis is a great starter rack!! best bang for buck hp/cost/decent power/manufacturer reputation!!!

btw - the quantizer is superfluous - varigate can output quantized sequenced pitch and pams can do quantized loopable random pitch... and you may find you don't really need an adsr - a large proportion of modular users just use ad or ar envelopes

Hi folks!

After watching a lot of demos, I've come up with the following rack, and I'm wondering if it'll do what I hope it will.

My goal is to be able to get off from work, get a patch going, and groove. I'm shooting for EDM sorts of sounds--a few drum sounds, a couple standard-ish synth voices, and the option for simple chord progressions if I really want to. I'd also like to be able to record my jams into a DAW.

do you have an audio interface? can it handle modular levels? if no to either question consider an expert sleepers es9

Personally I think you are trying to do too much in too small a rack - there is not really the space for the support modules that are really needed to make the most of the number of voices (including percussion) that you are trying to cram into such a small rack - it's often said 1 voice per row - although, just like "you can never have too many vcas", this should be taken lightly

you might also want to look at "controller" modules

I understand some of the joy of modular is going nuts and leaving more traditional synthesis, but for now, I'm just looking to get the hang of the modular workflow in general.

I'm also wondering how "playable" I might find this. What I mean is, are there enough immediate ways for me to directly influence the sound outside of patching to feel like I'm changing the music as it happens. Examples would include varying sequences, dropping an element that's playing, and otherwise keeping things fresh/building tension and release.

maybe, maybe not - probably tending towards probably not, tbh...

mutes. switched multiples and trigger combiners, possibly trigger delays etc - more mixing - I really like matrix mixers - doepfer do a nice inexpensive ergonomic one...

stay away from micro modules (there may be some actual mutable plaits still available)

I'm sure something like this has been posted a hundred times before, but I didn't have much finding what I wanted with the search function.

there are lots and lots of newbie rack questions - they're almost all applicable to you - you are not especially different in any way than any other newbie - read a load of those threads and learn!!!

take a look at my signature - it's a rough guide to getting the most out of a modular synthesizer, for the least amount of cash

I'd take your goal and set it aside as a more mid- to long- term goal - start with a minimum viable synth and learn how to use it properly before adding more voices and percussion

EDITED Sep 2nd 2022, 00:53

and the link - jpgs really suck!!!

@Jim: "I think the biggest challenge is finding what works for you and not what works for other people - experimentation is the key - not 'specific techniques for patching modulation + utilities in Eurorack patches" --> nicely said. Modular has taught me a lot about "groping and listening my way through" sound design; in fact a great boon of modular is that it absolutely forces experimentation. A lot of my earlier VST time was cursed with "nail that patch I'm hearing somewhere" vs. playfully getting to know the ins, outs and quirks of a particular instrument. Howard Scarr can nail patches, do the Batman scores, write the Virus programming handbook and the Bazille Cookbook, but I still have to grub my way around hearing and understanding the building blocks of sound design (though Rob Papen's fabulous "4 Element Synth" helped get me past ground zero).

yeah I kind of understand this - I've got a virus kb and apart from randomly twiddling knobs to 'change' presets I never really understood it - building some REs for Reason (which I never ended up releasing) kind of helped - as did, to some extent, reading the sound on sound synth secrets series of articles (these might help you too - easily findable online)- but nothing helped like physically patching a modular - not that I try to create synthesized versions of any real instruments in any way (other than using things like rings - which kind of do it for you)

@Garfield, good question, yes I have a bunch of filters (and waveshapers) but I'm probably underutilizing those too. The more of this thread I write and read, the more it occurs to me a lot of my time on modular is focused on really exploring 1-2 modules at a time (which is all well and good), and pretty rarely am I focussed on building a robust signal chain that has a chance of having good sonic depth, interest, movement, etc., while still being a good "role player" and fitting into a reasonable mix.

Net net, this is helping me shift mindsets a bit from "OMG there's still stuff I don't know about this module I've got to focus on it more" to "make sure to spend a good chunk of making a nice and full sounding patched instrument, and enjoy getting to know modules a bit better along the way."

... AND while we're talking filters, I have to give a shout out to my latest addition, Jolin Agogo (Octal LPG). Sounds really good and it's great to have 8 LPGs in a small package!

Happily, all this leaves me really jonesing to get back in front of my modular rig -- need to wrap up my work for the day and leave some patching time before bed!

sounds like a plan!!!

The things I feel like i miss the most are a good deep Bass sound. I am gonna sell the doepfer oscillator because i just don't really like it. Thinking about getting a Dixie II.

what exactly do you not like about the doepfer vco? - it's a fine vco and should be good for any use (I have the basic version and it works fine for bass lines) - you may find that you actually want 2 identical vcos, slightly detune them* and mix the waveforms before filtering them - you may find exactly the same issue with the dixie II

note you might actually want to tune the vcos (including plaits) if you aren't already doing this - this will set the pitch response to 0v - you can almost definitely download a tuner onto your phone for free

a simple clock divider is also a good inexpensive idea - send the square wave from the vco to it - /2 = -1 8ve, /4 = -2 8ves etc etc (but remember for a good bass sound to actually cut through properly you'll also want some higher frequency information)

you might also find a different filter really helps - doepfer wasp adds a nice bit of grit, for example!

*this is often what gives a 'phat' bass sound

But than again I am not sure how i am going to sequence the bass sound yet. any tips on this?
-- QkelleQ

the metropolix has 2 pitch sequencing channels - would you not use one of those? it may also help if you got a simple adsr - possibly a vcadsr - doepfer make a perfectly good one

remember to use a buffered multiple to copy the pitch voltages

more mixers is probably a good idea - submixers and a matrix mixer - again doepfer work well for a reasonable price!!

see my signature for a basic guide to getting the most versatility in your modular synthesizer for the least cash

EDITED Sep 1st 2022, 23:44

and here's the actual link - jpgs are useless!!!

Hi Jim, thanks for the note.

NP

In my big studio rig, I do have a bunch of relevant scale/offset/mix utilities: Maths, Sum*Diff, SISM, Levit8, Doepfer A 1-38m Matrix Mixer, and 12 lanes of VCA (3 quads). I also have plenty of CV sources from standard envelopes, LFOs and sequencers through chaos and random. Your tagline of "sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities" I've tried to keep in mind for my modules --> but I probably haven't kept it in mind for all my actual patches!

It's more important to have them there for when you need them as opposed to using them all the time... I have loads of modules I don't use in every patch...

So I'm probably vastly under-utilizing my existing scale/offset/mix utilities --> my current guess I should press my upcoming patching to have i) a lot more modulation targets and ii) nearly all mod signals "dialed in" or restrained via attenuate / offset / mix.

sounds like a plan!!

I think one challenge I've had on this point so far is not having a great sense "what good looks / sounds like" in terms of #s, balance and specific patching techniques for modulators + utilities in Eurorack patches.

I think the biggest challenge is finding what works for you and not what works for other people - experimentation is the key - not 'specific techniques for patching modulation + utilities in Eurorack patches'

Maybe they need a "bottom Draw" feature.

Just an area to dump modules without pissing off the cat :P

-- Keean

just add an extra row at the bottom of the rack...

so Nick, the answer is - better patching technique AND more modules!!

it's all there in my signature

sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

how to get the most out of your modular for the least cash - plain to see and easy to understand, but unfortunately also often ignored...

a matrix mixer is a great addition to any modular system - relatively inexpensive, if you buy something like the doepfer - which will take 4 modulation sources as inputs and spit out 4 more related (and possibly/hopefully attenuated) more modulation sources

a bank of attenuators (and/or attenuverters) is a near necessity to reduce the travel of modulation sources

lots of vcas are useful to modulate those modulation sources

for those extra modulation sources to be useful you need modulation inputs (both on sound sources and sound modifiers)

alternative: doepfer matrix mixer

start with a bigger case - get a tiptop mantis!!!

make sure you leave most of it free though - no plan survives contact with the enemy

not a lot I would call 'utilities' there - see my signature for advice on that

you'll get better help with a link to the actual public rack & not just a shitty jpg - which fails to provide click through and mouse over infomatics

copy and paste the url into your post

there are mic-pre modules that supply phantom power - ES Little Miley and Befaco Instrument Interface 4(?) for example

with the tex-mix you can use the 2 mono sends as a stereo send to a single stereo effect (or effect chain) which is how it's set up on the stereo channels - this allows for a further stereo channel input to the mixer on the spare return - although you only get a volume control and not panning or mutes - nor access to the direct outs if you are using those

both the doepfer ones do this - it's kind of the definition of a sequential switch

a-151 is 4hp and has 4->1 or 1->4 switching capaabilities

the other a-152(?) is much bigger and has 8->1/1->8 and a few other tricks up it's sleeve

@Lugia gave a great example of what you could do with the space freed up by the removal of the strega, also I completely agree about the size of the other modules (especially starlab) in this size build... just remember it's all just food for thought - going slowly and deciding what you really want (and what you actually need) in your case(s) over time is a very personal thing... but generally too many big modules (& needlessly racked semis) tend to push out other modules that are more useful

test reply - seems to be working again now - thanks!

EDITED Aug 18th 2022, 16:39

I'd leave the Strega in it's case and use the space for more utilities...

dump the b-company vca - and get a decent quad cascading vca from a reputable company - veils if you can find one, an intellijel or a happy Nerding 3*vca - you will need more vcas so it's a better investment (especially the veils!!)

as @benscott suggested get a bigger case - you will need it much sooner than you hope/expect/think - tiptop mantis is by far the best combination of hp/cost/decent power/manufacturer reputation - the power in the mantis is way way better than the uZeus!!! plus you will avoid the waste of space that is a rack wart (power supply module)

I wouldn't put a compressor in a build this size - and probably wouldn't go with a dual adsr - doesn't the gm have cv and envelope out - I might add a voltage controlled envelope generator of some sort though

Only listened to the last track - as it was the one that came up first on the player - good stuff!!

Was busy with other things today - I'll try and listen to the rest tomorrow!

Thank’s for the advice, let’s go for the mantis.
At the start I wanted to creat a finished case, but yes your are right.
Let’s start with a bigger case, and grow slowly.

Some advice for some modules to start?

-- supernatur

a sound source, a sound modifier, a modulation source, a way to play, a way to listen... maybe a few utility modules to help join everything together nicely...

a sound source - plaits is a common recommendation - there may be some available - otherwise any basic analog vco will be fine - doepfer or the like

a sound modifier - a low pass filter is a good place to start... I particularly like the SEM - or possibly a delay or multi-fx if you get plaits (as it has a built in filter) - so maybe an fx aid (I'd go pro though for this tbh! - so you can see what program you are on easily)

a modulation source - personally I'd get a maths - and download the 'maths illustrated supplement' work through that and try to understand what it's doing, how it's doing it and why, but a lot of people find that overwhelming (complex is just lots of simple!!!) - otherwise something like batumi is good - 4 lfos at once, different waveforms etc etc

a way to play - a sequencer, a midi->cv module etc etc etc

if a sequencer - get the one you like the workflow of best - don't be afraid to get a multi-channel ne especially if you intend to expand to multiple voices in the future - as then you will only need to learn one sequencer and avoid another learning curve in the future - I like the Erica Black Sequencer, but this is very personal... do your research - you will get lots of recommendations ie everyone has a different favourite...

a way to listen - really depends on what else you have and whether you think you need stereo from day 1 - plaits is dual mono, SEM filter is mono, fx aid is stereo... I'd just get a decent quad cascading vca (veils if you can find one) and use that as a mono or stereo output... at least for now...

I'm pretty sure you can use the es8 as a standalone ADAT expander - don't use the usb and connect the ADAT I/O to the ADAT I?O of your Motu... the extra channels will show up as part of the Motu in your DAW

check the manual - it's easily accessible on the ES site!

plus 62 hp for Intellijel-format tiles...we'll call those 31 hp, as most tiles are sort of "half a module". 93 + 93 = 186 hp, with me being charitable. But as far as JUST the 3U modules, you've only got 124 hp.
-- Lugia

very charitable, I'd call them 1/3rd of a module - so 20ish hp

Considering that I have Rings, Ears (not really useful but..), Plaits and 4ms Listen I/O with Doepfer 1-190-3, and I want
to order Veils and Maths.. What should I put next to get that modulated, long ambiances. Or ambient noises, foggy chords in the atmosphere of Silent Hill, Twin Peaks etc. ?

veils and maths - check - don't slouch on the veils - pre-order from somewhere that is still offering them!! they will be gone before you know it, once the last batch appears

next I'd go for a decent sequencer and a matrix mixer...

for a sequencer I'd go for an Erica black over Rene - rings will take one channel and if you want to sequence chords on plaits, then you'll use another 2 - this will leave one over for the future - always a good plan - and with the black sequencer you can tie notes and you get another track on each channel for modulation as well as the pitch and gate...

matrix mixers are incredibly useful for taking copies of modulation sources and deriving more related complex modulations from them, amongst other things...

add extra rows for the semis...

Yeah, there was an issue with the rack, it wasn't showing up in the forum post how it was configured so I deleted it and now...well...I can't even delete this forum thread, sorry.
-- rayvon05

you can edit and replace the link with the correct one though!!!

NB it has to be public - so we can open it etc

EDITED Aug 4th 2022, 17:04

the link doesn't work... please fix it!!!

Glaring omissions:

1. filter - plaits is a voice module - and has a built in filter - as part of the built in low pass gate - I wouldn't worry too much about this for now - if you're going to get a plaits though hurry up - last batch may already be out there - and if you're getting plaits I'd go for veils over the intellijel quad - it's a little smaller and has more features... but again - good luck in getting one...

2. a mixer would be a very good addition... vcas are extremely useful for both audio and modulation... both of the moons have them built in so don't 'need' to go through another vca... I'd add an inexpensive mixer - get one that's dc-coupled and when you come to upgrade your end of chain mixer, it it can be used for other things...

why are effects modules expensive? they're not necessarily - you're obviously looking at expensive ones... but a lot of the 'expensive' ones take a long time to develop, not just in terms of hardware, but also software - if you want cheap effects then you could also look at guitar pedals and pedal interfaces (AISynthesizers makes a DIY one that's pretty inexpensive)

I agree with Lugia about a bigger case - mantis is imo, one of the best starter cases there is especially because of the combination of decent power/manufacturer reputation/hp/cost

take a look at my signature - it's a simple guide to getting the most versatility out of your modular for the least cash - and scales well from the smallest to the biggest systems...

If you can get an original plaits, I would as they will not be available for very much longer due to Mutable shutting up shop... It looks like last batches (of beads, plaits, ripples and) are still to go out - they've not officially been discontinued... also Emilie gets paid - unlike the b-company version...

also I'd go with the bear matrix mixer... slightly better ergonomics (important when trying to get to tiny trimmers)... 4 output channels (not 3 and a sum)... & the bi-/uni-polar switches (so you can subtract as well as add)...

personally

I'd want more utilities - more mixing - specifically a matrix mixer - I think they're incredibly useful... especially for deriving more complex related modulation from the modulation you have... but you won't fit that in until you realise you need another case... (note I'm not telling you to get a another/bigger case)

it's also a bit cramped for me - too many micro modules...

otherwise reasonably balanced - kinks is excellent!!! as is 3*mia and a good call on a real rings imo...

if you'd gone for a real plaits - you could have taken out the pico dsp & rand, the mult, the headphone amp and put in a alm hpo, a matrix mixer and an fx aid... no loss of functionality, but added versatility - use stackcables or headphone splitters for mults etc

I could say the same to you...

let's shut the fuck up hey?

and everyone with any sense at all knows that you can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time...

Thanks,
Can you talk me through ‘seeing your signature’ please :)

-- clivevass

it's the smaller text in the box at the bottom of the post, directly below this line

EDITED Jul 28th 2022, 13:03