your favorite chaos modules?

Hi folks,

I am thinking about adding some chaos modules to my setup in the near future.

My interest is to add some signal that is less strictly repeating than traditional LFOs / envelopes but more patterned than random. I would generally mix that in with other signal to add some musical “slop” “wandering” etc.

Top of mind are NLC Triple Sloths and Hypster.

Are there any other related modules you love and would recommend? If so what are they, why do you like them, and how are you generally using them?

A lot of the NLC modules look interesting to me but they are also rather baffling. So I thought this is a good point to ask for some suggestions on.

Thanks!!

Nicholas

EDITED Aug 19th 2021, 01:47

I've only been at it for a half year or so, but the most useful to me for this purpose has been my 4MS PEG (similar to a Make Noise Maths or a Befaco Rampage). Really anything that can create multiple and CV-controllable envelopes and slews I'd think would be useful for a kind of controlled chaos aspect, when used creatively.

The Hypster sounds pretty cool, wouldn't mind trying it myself......

A thing I've been experimenting with a bit in what may be a semi-related way has been the 4MS Percussion Interface w/ Expander. The name is kind of misleadingly narrow though. It converts an incoming audio signal into a realtime CV envelope, with a sensitivity/threshold setting, sustain/decay, an optional envelope follower switch, independent amp levels for both the envelope and an inverted copy of the envelope, and has a couple other little tricks up its sleeve to boot. When you think about that creatively it offers some really interesting possibilities. For example you could feed in audio from a TV or a radio or a pre-recorded field recording or whatever, fine tune the threshold and release to be either very liberal or very conservative, and thereby have a continual incoming stream of random little CV triggers and spikes and modulations, both positive and negative, to modulate whatever other sonic parameters in your system you wish. It also wasn't terribly expensive as I recall, I think under $200 with the expander included.

EDITED Aug 19th 2021, 02:26

I was just going to suggest the 2HP RND, cos it just sits there taking up so little space but you can get Random gates out of it so can be used as an On/Off switch on things like the Freeze button on Clouds etc. Plus Smooth and Quantasized (stepped) random outputs you can use to Modulate your Modulators etc.

But @eexee's suggestion of the 4MS sounds like loads of fun.

BTW, if you happen to own a Disting it has a Chaos mode.

EDITED Aug 19th 2021, 06:55

Hi,

Addac 506 is a good one.
Quad random enveloppe generator.

Beast tek double dragon is fun.
It's not a random generator but it can produces very weird waveforms.

Synthesis technology E352 gives good results too.

Cheers

Two chaos modules from Elby Designs to look at:
IF 120 Chaotica
IF 108 ChaQuO

I am using the IF 120. Very happy with it.
Many of the NLC look interesting to me as well and have though about adding one.

Also, there is a difference between chaos and random. Nicholas is asking for chaos and some of the suggestions above are for random. See An Introduction to Chaos Generators by Chris Meyer for an explanation:
https://www.elby-designs.com/webtek/panther/if108-chaquo/chaos-generators/chaos-generators.htm

All the best

P.S. Some of the Elby Design modules are deep so not skiff friendly.

EDITED Aug 19th 2021, 21:33

I like the Zlob Diode Chaos. It's sort of like 1/3 of a Triple Sloths with a random trigger out at 3hp. I don't typically like odd sized modules but I had a 3hp hole about a year ago, and it was a welcome addition to my rack.

Thanks for the recommendations above folks!

@cmb_ is correct, I am presently more interested in "chaos" type modules which are different from random. The Elby link / description above is good. Put simply, chaos module outputs are less patterned than LFOs but more patterned than random.

The Nonlinear Circuits chaos modules are particularly interesting to me (https://www.nonlinearcircuits.com/modules?tag=Chaos). I'm going to get Triple Sloths. If people love/hate the other modules, I'd be interested to hear which ones and why!

In the meantime, I'll continue to check out the recommendations above, most of which I'd never heard of before. Thanks for the ideas everyone!

I just installed Sloths today and it’s immediately making Plaits do very cool things by modulating timbre, morph and harmonics. I’ve also got it hooked up to Data so I can see the waves. I was thinking about doing a video of the scope with some detailed descriptions- there’s not much out there to help understand exactly how it works.

@TumeniKnobs, yes what you described of Plaits+Sloths is exactly the main type of use case I'm planning: chaos signals routed into timbral controls. FYI bottom of Nonlinear Circuits pages often have videos where you can see their modules on scopes and hear results. But yes I would be interested to hear your configuration!

Hi Nickgreenberg,

Since you are looking for rather chaos modules and less for random modules then have a look into Make Noise's Wogglebug and Telharmonic modules as well. They can be total chaos and with a bit luck, sometimes, you can manage to get something reasonable out of it, but if you want just chaos they serve that purpose pretty well is my experience :-)

Another "beauty" if it comes to unorganised chaos is the Erica Synths - Black Octasource, that's a chaotic LFO pure! But semi-organised if you like otherwise just leave it completely up to Octasource itself to get totally bananas, I love this module. It needs a bit time to learn and understand this psycho (module) but I love it.

Have fun with all that chaos and kind regards, Garfield.

Hi folks, thanks for the ideas above!

Update: I decided to go ahead with a few modules from NLC that I've been wanting for some time. Triple Sloths, Hypster and Squid Axon. Triple Sloths is well known and loved; Hypster was strongly recommended to me as something great for my use cases; Squid Axon, well me and the GF have a big kitty who acts like a giant squid quite often, so clearly I needed a Squid Axon. It actually does look like a cool and useful module, but names matter, I couldn't resist... BTW the videos on the bottom of the NLC module pages will show you what these do, in case you're curious.

I've had a scan of the modules mentioned above. IMO the Elby Designs and Zlob modules sound like very good alternatives / complements for the type of chaos I'm looking for. The Elby in particular are by Ian Fritz who also originated the ideas behind the NLC Hypster. I'll consider those in the future if I need to add more chaos. Wogglebug I would also likely add, if it was ever available...

I have to say, of all the Eurorack modules I've considered, the chaos modules are among the hardest I've found to compare / select. Some considerations I've come had:
-- smooth or jerky: for example NLC has some jerk chaos modules, don't think I need those now (and frankly can hardly imagine a musical use for them)
-- rate: slow like Sloths appeals to my use cases, as well as having some faster moving chaos signals. I can't yet imagine a musical use for audio-rate chaos signal
-- controls: I'm finding a lot of these units (esp the NLC ones) are more "user influenced" than "user controlled" e.g. one cannot rigidly constrain the chaos behavior, just "nudge" the behavior a bit here or there.
-- # of outputs: all things considered I'd like a chaos unit with more outs so it can add wander/slop to more destinations.
-- appealing videos: as the descriptions of the module can leave so much to the question "what does it do," the modules for which there are decent videos showing the module in action producing musically interesting (to me results) go to the top of my consideration set

Lastly, for those interested, there's a thread at MW by Ian Fritz that brings up many (and more technical) issues of chaos modules in Eurorack https://modwiggler.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=194284&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

I wanted to post this to wrap this thread up (at least from my end for now). Again, thanks for all the ideas and comments!

I use these audio-rate chaos modules :
NLC Giant BONO
Neutron Sound Orgone Accumulator
Rob Hordijk Benjolin
Error Instruments Sound Scaper.

And I use these CV chaos modules :
NLC Triple Sloths V2
NLC Hyperchaos Deluxe
NLC Let's Splosh
NLC Genie.

It's (mainly) for creating backgroung soundscapes in art exhibitions, and (occasionally) soundscapes for games.
(some sounds here : https://arcanewaves.bandcamp.com/album/electronic-fields)

EDITED Aug 25th 2021, 07:27

@Jihel, thanks for sharing that info above.

I checked our your bandcamp page, very interesting tracks!!

If you're up to share a few of the main patching configuration you use with chaos modules, I'd be very interested (as I'm sure would others). Your ambient work is some of the best I've heard, I'd be very curious to know some of your main setups for that. Of course you don't have to give away all your secrets ; )

Regards,

Nicholas

@nickgreenberg

Hi Nicholas,
Thank you for listening :)

Nothing secret or esoteric in my works. It's mainly improvised basic tracks.
I use few modules, usually a sound source connected to a filter, modulated by 1 or 2 chaos-modulators. These modulators are controlled by variable-rates LFO's.
Sometimes I finalize with reverb or delay, but I prefer "dry noises".
I like a lot NLC modules because they are raw and unpredictable.

The most important, my modular system is permanently connected to my computer and I always record what I do. I use later the DAW in time-grid sandbox, and (in "old school mode") I arrange the recorded basic tracks into structures.

Regards,
Jihel

EDITED Aug 27th 2021, 09:22

As far as chaos goes... multiple LFOs that are mixed together in a DC compatible mixer that's capable of attenuverting is great for creating chaos. Switches connected to a randomized sample and hold, switching between different modulation sources can make for nice chaos. Also check out Vector Space from WORNG Electronics. It combines (mixes) CV signals in a unique way that might give you that something different you're looking for.

Ronin, thanks for the mentions above, I'll check them out!

An idea to add here, ADDAC405 is a "Relabi Generator;" it is a multi-mixing LFO complex CV and gate source. Hard to describe precisely in a short phrase here, but very reminiscent of what Ronin is discussing above. I NEVER see the ADDAC405 discussed on MG -- thought it is worth a shout out! I love ADDAC stuff!

I wanted to bring this thread back to mention the Ieaskul F Mobenthey modules by Peter Blasser (also of Ciat Lonbarde). The whole system is built for chaos.

My setup is built around those modules, and utilities to support them and help me manage the intricate feedback loops of modulation.

Almost any system can be induced to generate chaos, if you have a feedback loop that includes a nonlinearity. Loop the end result back into the beginning. Make a LFO or VCO modulate its own frequency. Have a series of LFOs modulating each other, and then also modulating VCOs, and then take the output of the VCOs and have it feed back and modulate the LFOs. The snake eats its own tail. Tails.

here's one example

@Exiannyc thanks for your post and videos, very interesting! And a very good point about feedback loops. I've been cautious about patching feedback loops in my setup... maybe its time to get on that!

A couple adds from my side:
-- my order from NLC showed up. Very cool stuff. I've spent most time so far with Hypster. Yes it is a chaos module but not what I was expecting. With stable settings, the output is very stable and repetitive. It is with changed settings (manually or CV) that the output varies, and in a very nonlinear way. So for example 1 or 2 LFO inputs to Hypster and the output will be pushed through a very dynamic and only partly controlled wavespace. That's my take on it so far, and I'm pleased to have added it to my setup!

-- also in my NLC order were TripleSloths, Neuron and Squid Axon. I have yet to really dig into these but am looking forward to.

-- I see Joranalogue has Orbit3 upcoming. This is also a chaos module. I LOVE the Joranalogue stuff I have so far, so I have to imagine Orbit3 is a capable offering as well. But I don't plan on getting this any time soon as my NLC stuff just recently arrived and should give me lots to play with and scratch my head over.

Thanks everyone for your ideas and comments!

The Joranalogue Orbit 3 is a variation of the NLC Hypster with the same controls with different names (the switch Tame/Wild is identical).
Maybe the Orbit 3 is more stable (but who need stability with a chaos module ;) ).
And yes, with the Hypster you can have stable out.
Anyway, Joranalogue make good modules.

Waaaaait for iiiiiiit...Tiptop should have the Euro Buchla 200's version of the Model 266 SOU in a matter of months, for a reasonable price that's rather non-Buchla-ish. Given that the Source of Uncertainty is something of the "gold standard" for random signals, having that for randomness seems to me to be a real opportunity to experience something historical AND useful, to say nothing of it being built to Buchla standards.

Verbos Electronics Random Sampling is very close to Buchla Model 266 SOU yes? I nearly got the Verbos a few times but decided to wait. Partly I was waiting because that's a spendy unit; partly I was waiting because to my mentality, "chaos" seems a bit more musically useful than random. Am I off base here?

When the Tiptop/Buchla stuff appears, I'm likely going to want a fair bit of it! Yes that historical brand/tech appeals to me a lot.

Skimmed again... have you thought of using a Turing Machine? There are a few dedicated Turing modules as well as modules with this mode like Ornament & Crimes. I believe O&C can also quantize outputs making the randomness more musical.

@Ronin1973 that's a good suggestion. I've stayed away from Turing Machine type models mainly because I don't understand them, either as modules or in terms of potential musical use cases.

O&C comes up very recommended over and over. I've stayed away from that one and Distings because multi-use, menu-divey, extremely deep modules with big manuals are not my "cup of tea" right now. Having gotten into Eurorack in the last 12 months and bought a lot of gear, I still have much to wrap my mind and ears around with the more "basic" modules I own.

I'll need to flag the Turing types, along with O&C and Distings as "maybe future" modules for me to consider going forward, maybe for deep winter here in Minnesota, when an afternoon spent with a manual and a single module is a more agreeable idea.

EDITED Oct 8th 2021, 19:31

@Ronin1973 that's a good suggestion. I've stayed away from Turing Machine type models mainly because I don't understand them, either as a module, or in terms of potential musical use cases.

O&C comes up very recommended over and over. I've stayed away from that one and Distings because multi-use, menu-divey, extremely deep modules with big manuals are not my "cup of tea" right now. Having gotten into Eurorack in the last 12 months and bought a lot of gear, I still have much to wrap my mind and ears around with the more "basic" modules I own.

I'll need to flag the Turing types, along with O&C and Distings as "maybe future" modules for me to consider going forward, maybe for deep winter here in Minnesota, when an afternoon spent with a manual and a single module is a more agreeable idea.
-- nickgreenberg

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

neither are turing machines or distings

turing machine is pretty simple generate a string of random stepped voltages that are loopable - you almost always want a quantizer after it if you want 'musical'

disting is also quite simple - there's just a lot of it - it's just select algorithm and the knobs and i/o change but nto that much and it's pretty easy to get your head around especially if you set up favourites (a text file on an sd card) so that you are not trying every mode and having to read the manual all the time

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

-- Ronin1973

@Ronin1973 hnmm - something wrong here did you mean scale and not send?

... hmm, okay, so maybe I just flat don't understand Disting/O&C modules yet. I'll take a closer look.

The description of Turing as "string of random stepped, and loopable" makes a lot of sense.

Thanks!

The O&C isn't that menu-divey. Once you've selected a mode of operation, everything for that mode is on one page. The length of the menu might expand if you select certain features (like using a ADSR envelope rathe than a gate). But it's fairly simple to use.

neither are turing machines or distings

turing machine is pretty simple generate a string of random stepped voltages that are loopable - you almost always want a quantizer after it if you want 'musical'

disting is also quite simple - there's just a lot of it - it's just select algorithm and the knobs and i/o change but nto that much and it's pretty easy to get your head around especially if you set up favourites (a text file on an sd card) so that you are not trying every mode and having to read the manual all the time

As far as the turing machine, having a module that can send control voltage (like a Befaco Attenuverter or an Intellijel Quadratt) are nice for having better real time control of the Turing settings.

-- Ronin1973

@Ronin1973 hnmm - something wrong here did you mean scale and not send?

-- JimHowell1970

No. Check out this Voltage Control Lab tutorial... around the 2:15 mark explaining what I mean. In the video, they use Maths channels 2 and 3 as real time controls. Of course you can use any CV source, automated or manual.

It's worth mentioning for posterity and because we here love chaos, that the Batumi echoey firmware implements what is called "Verhulst's logistics map" . Since Batumi vanilla is just regular LFO this may not be obvious but it is a pretty useful implemtation such that you can have the four generators running independent or phased versions of the chaos and will have corresponding frequency synced sin and square waves not to mention self modulating possibilities for frequency modulation of each generator. 😎

It's worth mentioning for posterity and because we here love chaos, that the Batumi echoey firmware implements what is called "Verhulst's logistics map" . Since Batumi vanilla is just regular LFO this may not be obvious but it is a pretty useful implemtation such that you can have the four generators running independent or phased versions of the chaos and will have corresponding frequency synced sin and square waves not to mention self modulating possibilities for frequency modulation of each generator. 😎
-- slippage

Could you post a video clips of this?

Could you post a video clips of this?

The Expert Firmware include the Verhulst’s logistic chaotic system.
Xaoc Github Link.

Random Waveforms Bank
New Quad Mode
Advanced Zoom Interface

Could you post a video clips of this?

The Expert Firmware include the Verhulst’s logistic chaotic system.
Xaoc Github Link.

Random Waveforms Bank
New Quad Mode
Advanced Zoom Interface
-- defragmenteur

Thanks defo looks interesting.but must admit im abit scared of the firmware upgrade process both with the Batumi and zadar