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Getting back into synths after many many years away from synths, Korg Polysix and a bit of Modular in the 80s/90s.
What I have now/ordered:
1) Intellijel 7U stealth case inflight
2) KMI/ES DIY Kits VCO, VCA, and EV; probably get the rest for learning purposes, may use long term if they work out
3) Mutable Instruments - Plaits, Beads - still in their boxes, waiting on case; can replace with others modules, can still return.
What I want:
1) Fully Modular, Racked, outside of controller (keystep pro or other)
2) Minimize the use of DAW
2) 2-3 additional voices for bass, pads, lead
3) Include West Coast / Complex Oscillator - heavily leaning towards Endorphin.es Shuttle but optimized as modules in intellijel case (leverage 1Us, mono inputs on cockpit, etc.)
4) Granular Module - Beads, Morphagene, or Arbhar
5) Drum Kit in Rack - mainly EDM - Queen of Pentacles, Black Noir, other?
6) Mordax Date or Other - oscilloscope, VC monitoring, and tuner; I have a bench oscilloscope but want something easy to use in the case.
Budget is flexible, just don't want to waste money (doesn't provide educational or enjoyment value).
where is the modulation sources and utilities that are really needed to make the most of expensive shiny modules??? see my signature for some hints...
you'll almost definitely want more than a keystep pro to sequence the drum synth module (probably want 8 trigger/gate outputs just for that) and the melodic voices you have in there...
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Well, if money's a major issue here, I would suggest that your first move should be to replace all of that Endorphin.es stuff. It's spendy, and you can get the same things (if not better!) for less money. Kinda big, too...for example, the Furthurrr Gen is $779 and 30 hp. OR...Tiptop's Buchla 258, which is $200, and if you miss the waveshaper, you can add the Dannysound Timbre, which is based on the Buchla 259's waveshaping circuitry for another $100 and change. But not only does that save money, it saves space...the 258 is 18 hp, and the waveshaper is only 6, and that leaves a new 6 hp space to add something else.
Since you've been out of the game for a while, these days things are all about trying for maximum functionality with best-case $$$ outlays while NOT wrecking the ergonomics. It's very doable, but this isn't like whipping up some basic gear anymore. There's so many choices that you've sort of got to sort out what you want the build to DO before coming up with a build plan.
One other thing...drum machines in modular are HELLA expensive. You can do them, sure...but remember, you need the voicing AND its sequencer. Now, the Queen of Pentacles is $669 for starters, and you're still looking at outlay for a suitable pattern sequencer on top of that. So...$1k tends to be around the spot most of these come in at, and that's just not tenable when you can get a decent (and very 909-ish) machine like Uli's RD-9 for perhaps a THIRD of that. And yes, it'll lock right up to whatever sync the modular's using. Oh, and you get back another 30 hp for use elsewhere in the build. In short: if an answer exists outside of modular, it's often better to take THAT instead of using hp and cash to make it happen in the cab.
where is the modulation sources and utilities that are really needed to make the most of expensive shiny modules??? see my signature for some hints...
you'll almost definitely want more than a keystep pro to sequence the drum synth module (probably want 8 trigger/gate outputs just for that) and the melodic voices you have in there...
-- JimHowell1970
Okay. This can be rack case one, I can get a 2nd case once comfortable with the first one. I pretty set on the following Endorphin.es shuttle modules -> furthrrr, grand terminal, and drum module. Next is the gateway and golden master for mixing and final processing. The rest I am flexible, the DIY kits are just for relearning electronics , and the mutable instruments are sealed and can be returned. Do you have any specific suggestions for case number #1 and # of vca, lfos, and utilities?
Concerning the key step pro, was planning to connect it via usb to the shuttle controller that has 16 cv/gates out. Or will this not work? Works with the beatstep pro from what I understand.
Well, if money's a major issue here, I would suggest that your first move should be to replace all of that Endorphin.es stuff.
I guess the money statement was poorly worded. It’s not an issue. Also my response to JimHowell1970 this can be case #1. Looking to start with a couple voices, and drums if possible with one out of techno, industrial, or house; and some ambient to chill too. If I pick up a drum machine, really anything, it won’t be from uli. I rather support smaller manufacturers and stores, and pay the extra money ie. endorphin.es.
I’ll take a look at tiptop, but space is not as big of an issue as I am willing to get another case. Any additional suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for ideas. I think I will keep the sequencer out of the rack and use a Midi - CV interface and external CV-outs direct to modules if needed.
Added: Arbhar, Dual Disting for Flexibility - quantizing, etc. , 2x PNW so 16 outs for clock or LFOs with random/euclidean/etc, 2x veils for VCA, Maths for wackiness/flexibility, and 1U Ornament and Crime for more flexibility.
Couple Things
1) 2x veils because I got overloaded with options for 2nd Quad VCA. Wasnt 100% on the Malekko read bleeds noise
2) Is 2x Disting + O&C to much - flexibility
3) Is 2x PNW overkill? I can always start with 1x PNW & 1x Veils (or other Quad VCA)
4) Having PNW, Disting, and O&C feels like a bit to much menus. Can I get away with 1 level deep changes?
5) Still have Endorphin.es complex OCI, will still look at others (tiptop), thanks for pointing me to the Brenso. Still researching
6) Kept plaits for 2nd easy to select voice
7) Still have queen of pentacles in there, I like the idea of nob turning etc. over keypad interfaces. Had 3 analog drums, and 4 samples I can switch around.
8) Effects - resonator, data bender, etc. What module would you switch out to get one in, and which one?
9) Get rid of O&C 1U and get some buffered or un-buffered mults?
1) 2x veils because I got overloaded with options for 2nd Quad VCA. Wasnt 100% on the Malekko read bleeds noise
2) Is 2x Disting + O&C to much - flexibility
3) Is 2x PNW overkill? I can always start with 1x PNW & 1x Veils (or other Quad VCA)
4) Having PNW, Disting, and O&C feels like a bit to much menus. Can I get away with 1 level deep changes?
5) Still have Endorphin.es complex OCI, will still look at others (tiptop), thanks for pointing me to the Brenso. Still researching
6) Kept plaits for 2nd easy to select voice
7) Still have queen of pentacles in there, I like the idea of nob turning etc. over keypad interfaces. Had 3 analog drums, and 4 samples I can switch around.
8) Effects - resonator, data bender, etc. What module would you switch out to get one in, and which one?
9) Get rid of O&C 1U and get some buffered or un-buffered mults?
-- endyii
The beauty of modular is you can do whatever you want
IMO:
Drop one Pam's and one Veils to leave room for Beads
Take a look at Falistri instead of Maths. If you choose Falistri a CV attenuverter / mixer would be a nice addition. Something like Frap Tools 321 or Happy Nerding 3x MIA
If this can be case no1 then imo I'd drop the 1u - I think 1u is massively overrated - and get a couple of mantises (which will only cost about the same as 1 7u intellijel case)
watch out for the endorphin.es use of trs cables - most modular uses ts...
as for falistri over maths - urgh - again personal preference, but I think the frap tools aesthetic is awful, cramped and all over the place!!!
I'd definitely only start with the single pams - 2 veils is good though... probably...
I'd try to do less in this case (1/2 the sound sources) and try to work out what support modules you need, get those and learn how to use them properly before expanding into a 2nd case
have fun!!
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
Just a note on QoP sample switching. The SD card is on the back of the unit, so you have to remove your module to get at it, so this is not the kind of module for regular sample switching. You might have more flexibility and a better workflow with an Erica Synths Sample Drum or Squarp Rample, and then a smaller drum module, eg. the VPME Quad Drum (with expander).
Just a note on QoP sample switching. The SD card is on the back of the unit, so you have to remove your module to get at it, so this is not the kind of module for regular sample switching. ...
-- mbl77
I wonder how badly things would go if one were to use a little ribbon cable extender to break out backside microsd slots to a 1-2hp module with a frontside slot or two (or three? however many fit i guess)
@JimHowell1970, Thanks for the help so far, can you take one last look?
If this can be case no1 then imo I'd drop the 1u - I think 1u is massively overrated - and get a couple of mantises (which will only cost about the same as 1 7u intellijel case)
Yeah, I hear you. Squeezing out an extra 1U if you have one portable case can work. Problem is I have it now, and will need to make the best use of it. Live and learn.
watch out for the endorphin.es use of trs cables - most modular uses ts...
Yes, one reason I went with the 1u control module, it has 1 stereo in, and the rest are 2x mono ins per channel versus the 3U version. I think I am limited to the one grand terminal stereo out now, and it comes with trs to ts splitter.
as for falistri over maths - urgh - again personal preference, but I think the frap tools aesthetic is awful, cramped and all over the place!!!
I took a look falistri, but will go with Maths. Plus if I dont like it - which i doubt it probably easier to unload then falistri.
I'd definitely only start with the single pams - 2 veils is good though... probably...
"Probably", as in I should get a different VCA for my second, or not enough VCAs? If the former, what would you suggest? If it is the later, I would get something when i hit the wall. I am lucky and live 15 min walk to a well stocked music/audio store that carries a good selections of quad VCAs etc; though not Veils that I am ordering online.
I'd try to do less in this case (1/2 the sound sources) and try to work out what support modules you need, get those and learn how to use them properly before expanding into a 2nd case
Honestly feeling a total newb, so need some help on this one. I been thinking it is the primary oscillators (Furthrrr in complex mode and Plaits), or do you also consider things like Beads or looping one of the Grand Centrals generators to audible range? I wasn't planning at first to use Beads and GC in that manner to start, but as you pointed out I need to figure out how to best use all the kit properly first before adding on more; totally agreement on this one.
have fun!!
-- JimHowell1970
I have cut down the initial starter below. I already have the mutable instruments, except veils; the endorphin.es Furthrrr and GC, and PNW. Not planning to purchase the QoP drum module for now, will think about the $$$ rack versus separate approach. In the mean time I can use Disting samples, Plaits, or from core oscillators if I am feeling crazy for percussion :P
Was looking to keep the 1u gateway module to mix and final output to interface, along with milkyway for effects. I have the Disting EX for or "crap i need another X", and to quantize for sure. Plan to drive the rack with CV outs keystep pro, and deal with getting something fancier (Midi to CV, or other later).
Any glaring holes below that will limit me starting, or is there 1-2 modules you would add?
Just a note on QoP sample switching. The SD card is on the back of the unit, so you have to remove your module to get at it, so this is not the kind of module for regular sample switching. ...
-- mbl77
I wonder how badly things would go if one were to use a little ribbon cable extender to break out backside microsd slots to a 1-2hp module with a frontside slot or two (or three? however many fit i guess)
I was thinking the same thing a few days ago, if I do end up getting the QoP later, I am willing to try. Not sure how dense the PCB was that they could not fit it on the front etc.
Do you need the Milky Way to start? You have effects already in Grand Terminal, and reverb with Beads. If I were getting a separate effects module, I'd look at something that didn't duplicate the effects I already had. Not 1U, but FX Aid XL has a huge range of (updateable) effects.
Do you need the Milky Way to start? You have effects already in Grand Terminal, and reverb with Beads. If I were getting a separate effects module, I'd look at something that didn't duplicate the effects I already had. Not 1U, but FX Aid XL has a huge range of (updateable) effects.
-- mbl77
Yeah, I was thinking the same, but erred on another for flexibility, and missed the reverb in Beads. A different FX module is a much better idea, and I can wait to add it later. I will take a look at the FX Aid XL. Thanks!
as for falistri over maths - urgh - again personal preference, but I think the frap tools aesthetic is awful, cramped and all over the place!!!
-- JimHowell1970
Not only that, the panel graphics are nearly-useless. Yeah, I can figure out what's going on myself, but for anyone starting in modular, Frap's gear isn't going to be all that helpful. The sole module of theirs that I recommend on any repeating basis is the 321...because it's relatively easy to suss out AND it's about the only thing I can think of in 6 hp that rivals modules such as Tiptop's MISO for modulation alterations. Maybe if they tried to make the panels make sense, instead of like controls out of an UFO...as it is now, the Buchla-esque part they're 100% on is an obtuse UI. And this is coming from someone who's used Buchlas!
Anyway, aside of the business above...I banged out a filled-out version of the OP's build. Here we go...
Different, hm? OK, here's what's in there and why...
TILES: I stuck with Intellijel here, as they have some really well thought out 1U stuff, such as the Noise Source (it's in here) which functions as a very effective "one-stop" utility. So what we have is a Stereo In (connects to a pair of 1/4" jacks on the cab), MIDI interface (connects to the USB MIDI jack), Noise Tools (clock, noise, s&h, slewing), QuadrATT (utility attenuverters, internal mixing), Dual VCA and the Stereo Output Mixer (connects to the other 1/4" pair). Now, that last pair allows you to parallel the Beads instead of relying on the wet/dry control, plus you can use the VCAs to control the level of either the Beads or the main mix in linked stereo. All you'd need to do is to mult the outputs from the mixer...we'll get to that in a minute...
ROW 1: This is all audio...and instead of one complex VCO, there's TWO. And not only that, each Buchla 258 is paired with a Joranalogue FLD6 waveshaper for even more timbral possibilities. Next is a Veils for straight VCAs, but you also have the option of using the Buchla 292's quad LPGs or a very twisted filter combo; if you were wondering about that 3 hp delay next to the Doepfer VCF, well...have a look at that Doepfer VCF. It's not merely Dieter's take on the MS-20 Sallen-Key pair, but it has an INSERT that lets you drop something else (like, say...a delay) into the resonance feedback path. And yes, delay + filter resonance sounds utterly insane and wild. Anyway, one last Veils on this row to control levels going into the Alyseum Q-Mix, which gives you four pannable inputs, a master level, and stereo outs. This is the point where you'd want to split out the Beads, btw...then you can balance your "dry" (direct mixer out) and "wet" (Beads), and also have some VCA control over one or the other, as needed. And the little white sliver at the left end is a Konstant Labs PWRchekr so that you can keep tabs on your DC rail health. Almost forgot that one...
ROW 2: Modulation and utility (and Beads)...Pam's, Disting EX, and then a Xaoc Batumi (with its expander) gives you four LFOs. Then Maths (of course!), and after that is another Xaoc piece, their Zadar quad envelope gen (again, with expander), and I added a pair of "quick access" Doepfer ADSRs. But in between the Zadar and the Maths, that's your "modulation modifier" zone...a MISO has the initial CV mangle, and then there's another Veils to provide VCAs over amplitudes coming from your mod sources. And then Beads...which is on the bottom row so that it could be closely located with the Q-Mix and Stereo output mixer above it.
Amusingly, that Buchla + Joranalogue combo costs $360...which is why I put TWO of 'em in there, and you STILL beat the Endorphin.es complex oscillator price! FYI, those Joranalogue waveshapers can take inputs from BOTH of the 258's two oscillators to "mash" the signals together as a waveshaped single signal with a bunch of FM or whatever else suits the occasion. Should be a fun rig!
@Lugia TYVM for putting this together, helps a lot. I started researching the forums more and worked on some variations this weekend. The Mod/Utility row looks "similar" to what I put together. In the context of starting with 1x 281T and a few other items first, see below, can you comment on the following?
--- 1U Row---
The 1U - makes sense to me, and without QoP drum module, the midi controls in there should be more then enough to start. Saves 3U space.
---Audio Row---
For the Audio Row, totally see what you are getting at with the HP/cost etc. I do have the Furthrrr now, but I can return pretty easily (15min walk to the shop with 14 day return). I put it in a pico case and on my scope to check it out last night. I see the similarities with the Sin/Square, Sin/Sawtooth, and the wave folding. It looks like the Furthrrr has the choice of Sin/Sawtooth/Square on both oscillators, I guess I could use 2x 258t to do dual square setup if I wanted, correct?
I am not sure how to match up the Furthrrr bus switch for balanced, amplitude, frequency, and "furthrrr" settings, with your suggested build. Looks like the 1U noise tools provides the the features of the noise in the Furthrrr, and more features. Also about tuning the oscillators, I guess I would need to tune with an external module or scope?
Still wrapping my head around the mixing, other aspects at the end.
--- Mods/Utils ---
For the Mod/Utils I worked up something similar with the PNW, Disting Ex, Batumi / Zadar with breakouts, and Maths; though mine was missing the MISO, and Doepher ADSRs.
--- Good starting build---
In the context of:
1) What I was willing to spend originally with endorpin.es setup
2) Assuming I minimally start with 1x single 258T, 1x Folder, and the 1U utilities
3) And I currently have PNW, Maths, 1x Veils, and Beads already
What other modules would you suggest to start with right away, and maybe a couple additional modules after? Also not to many modules, to get overwhelmed :0
TYVM for your time
Different, hm? OK, here's what's in there and why...
Amusingly, that Buchla + Joranalogue combo costs $360...which is why I put TWO of 'em in there, and you STILL beat the Endorphin.es complex oscillator price! FYI, those Joranalogue waveshapers can take inputs from BOTH of the 258's two oscillators to "mash" the signals together as a waveshaped single signal with a bunch of FM or whatever else suits the occasion. Should be a fun rig!
-- Lugia
--- 1U Row---
The 1U - makes sense to me, and without QoP drum module, the midi controls in there should be more then enough to start. Saves 3U space.
personally I think 1u makes little, to no, sense whatsoever... the cost of the 1u row is the same as for a 3u row, or in some cases more, I'd much rather buy 2 tiptop mantis cases than 1 of the intellijel 7u cases... and you can get much much more functionality in a 3u row than in a 1u row...
---Audio Row---
Also about tuning the oscillators, I guess I would need to tune with an external module or scope?
a free phone app or a guitar tuner pedal (plus appropriate cable) or your DAW (if you have one) will work for tuning!!!
--- Good starting build---
In the context of:
1) What I was willing to spend originally with endorpin.es setup
2) Assuming I minimally start with 1x single 258T, 1x Folder, and the 1U utilities
3) And I currently have PNW, Maths, 1x Veils, and Beads already
What other modules would you suggest to start with right away, and maybe a couple additional modules after? Also not to many modules, to get overwhelmed :0
none - just grab the vco and folder (& the utilities) and see where you are - learn these modules inside and out and then start working out what you are reaching for - and then slowly add modules that add those functions
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
--- 1U Row---
The 1U - makes sense to me, and without QoP drum module, the midi controls in there should be more then enough to start. Saves 3U space.
personally I think 1u makes little, to no, sense whatsoever... the cost of the 1u row is the same as for a 3u row, or in some cases more, I'd much rather buy 2 tiptop mantis cases than 1 of the intellijel 7u cases... and you can get much much more functionality in a 3u row than in a 1u row...
Yeah total get that, and if was do it again, it would probably do differently. But with the fact that I have the case now, and no real way to return it, I think the modules suggested makes sense.
---Audio Row---
Also about tuning the oscillators, I guess I would need to tune with an external module or scope?
a free phone app or a guitar tuner pedal (plus appropriate cable) or your DAW (if you have one) will work for tuning!!!
Doh, yeah :P
--- Good starting build---
In the context of:
1) What I was willing to spend originally with endorpin.es setup
2) Assuming I minimally start with 1x single 258T, 1x Folder, and the 1U utilities
3) And I currently have PNW, Maths, 1x Veils, and Beads already
What other modules would you suggest to start with right away, and maybe a couple additional modules after? Also not to many modules, to get overwhelmed :0
none - just grab the vco and folder (& the utilities) and see where you are - learn these modules inside and out and then start working out what you are reaching for - and then slowly add modules that add those functions
-- JimHowell1970
So in short: A 258T, folder, noise, quadratt, input/output, along with the PNW, Maths, 1x Veil, and Beads. Midi module can wait, an it is out of stock around where I am, or even online; but I can use CV outs on a controller etc for now. Something like the following, including a Disting EX for Swiss army knife of stuff.
So in short: A 258T, folder, noise, quadratt, input/output, along with the PNW, Maths, 1x Veil, and Beads. Midi module can wait, an it is out of stock around where I am, or even online; but I can use CV outs on a controller etc for now. Something like the following, including a Disting EX for Swiss army knife of stuff.
PNW can be used to generate quantized, looped pitch sequences as well as gates, triggers and modulation, so all that is covered - having the ability to program sequences should be secondary at the moment compared to learning how modular works, at least for a while... a disting might be a good idea as it will allow you to play with different things - however, I would learn to use the other modules first - maybe consider adding the disting in a few months
if & when you do get a disting, don't try to play with all the algos at one go - work out a few algos you want to learn about and make use of the favourites feature to concentrate on those - if you find you particularly like one algo, replace that with a dedicated module and then re-configure you favourites (and repeat!!!)
I'd also recommend downloading the 'maths illustrated supplement' and working through that a few times - try to work out the why and how of what you are doing - it's a great learning resource, if you do this instead of just blindly patching....
"some of the best base-level info to remember can be found in Jim's sigfile" @Lugia
Utility modules are the dull polish that makes the shiny modules actually shine!!!
So in short: A 258T, folder, noise, quadratt, input/output, along with the PNW, Maths, 1x Veil, and Beads. Midi module can wait, an it is out of stock around where I am, or even online; but I can use CV outs on a controller etc for now. Something like the following, including a Disting EX for Swiss army knife of stuff.
PNW can be used to generate quantized, looped pitch sequences as well as gates, triggers and modulation, so all that is covered - having the ability to program sequences should be secondary at the moment compared to learning how modular works, at least for a while... a disting might be a good idea as it will allow you to play with different things - however, I would learn to use the other modules first - maybe consider adding the disting in a few months
if & when you do get a disting, don't try to play with all the algos at one go - work out a few algos you want to learn about and make use of the favourites feature to concentrate on those - if you find you particularly like one algo, replace that with a dedicated module and then re-configure you favourites (and repeat!!!)
I'd also recommend downloading the 'maths illustrated supplement' and working through that a few times - try to work out the why and how of what you are doing - it's a great learning resource, if you do this instead of just blindly patching....
-- JimHowell1970
Okay, sounds like a good plan. I read similar suggestions, and think I could resist getting side tracked with the Disting is probably fool hardy. I tried to get the doc the other day, but it was through some download site I got blocked by, will try again later.
