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the reason I would buy an effect over quadrax is that you will then have 2 modulation sources (Maths and Quadrax) - whereas I would suggest reasonably early on adding something that is modulatable and will process the audio from your other synths - you may find you want something like quadrax next!

whilst I think Lugia's recommendations are always excellent, I would suggest taking them, and mine (and other people's, for that matter) with a little salt - they are much more about functionality, than specific modules, even when specific modules are suggested/recommended - except Maths and Veils!!! hahahaha

Part of modular is about having your own custom synthesizer - mine for example has 11 sound sources, one of which is polyphonic, and synthesizes both audio and video - it is quite large, I suppose, @ nearly 1500hp - NB the most common manufacturers in my modular are Doepfer, LZX (video) and Mutable Instruments (although some of both the LZX and mutable are DIY)

Even if you do buy all of Lugia's suggested modules, there's nothing wrong with swapping something out for something else, either if you don't get along with the specific module or can't find it due to availability issues and desperately need a XYZ module immediately

EDITED May 21st 2021, 15:23

I'd probably think about consolidating the vcas - veils replacing both would get you another 6hp in the larger case

Branches is perfect for hi-hats - I patch mine with one of the outs from the top section feeding the bottom section - that way you can add some skips - I often patch the other output from the top section to trigger something else too

good you went with the 6u! personally I don't like the rackbrute cases - rackwart, why?

but they do make sense with the minibrute 2

I'm not madly keen on the angle of the connection, but get the bag and you can cart the whole thing round as one thing

Thanks @toodee, I have been reviewing Lugia's reply and opened up browser tabs to each module to dig deeper into what each does...at least as much as you can by just reading about it :) and looking closer now at the "Quadrax + Maths + Veils" that you recommended as starting points in my build. One question on your starting recommendations...beings that one of the goals of my build is to extend the capabilities of my Hydrasynth and MiniBrute 2, would you still recommend those three as the starting point knowing i want to be able to patch into/integrate/etc with those two synths?

-- jb61264

Yes

Quadrax - quad modulation source - good - you have voices - with limited modulation sources... - but there's also Maths... which I would pick over Quadrax as starter moodule

Maths is a brilliant starter module - google the "Maths illlustrated manual" - which has illustrations of 32 self patching programs for maths - which is a great primer not only for Maths, but also for patching modular synths in general - it would be top of my list for adding more functionality to semi-modular synths

A quad cascading vca, such as Veils, would be second on that list

I'd probably replace quadrax with one of the effects though - either fx aid xl or warps

I'd also recommend grabbing a few stackcables - being able to use the same signal a couple of times is really handy especially in a small system - and they don't take up rack space

the next modules on my list would be Kinks and Shades or similar - they both add extremely useful functionality

small orders from Tayda usually get through ok - always take the low shipping - they do pots and knobs - some of them are cheap looking/feel compared to the Thonk ones though - the Davies clones don't have brass inserts - but everything works ok so far

there are a few stores in Germany - Banzai for example - that stock some things - Banzai at least do some pots and knobs

mutant brain is a midi->cv converter - what you want is a cv->midi converter - there are not so many to choose from - befaco do a couple and addac - the doepfer one that I have has been discontinued and the current one is a single note and gate iirc

max/msp - are you using ableton? if so use I would have thought that using the cv tools in that and output to the es3 would be the simplest solution

go to modulefinder - there should be a submit module button top right

I'd rather have a multi-effects unit - roland or something than this - is this for guitar? if so how are you going to control it???

modules are all very very small and difficult to use next to each other - get your tweazers ready!

having a modular effects box is exactly the same as a full on modular synth - still need modulation and utilities etc - the only difference is that the sound source is external (and that still needs a module)

iirc - go back to the page and refresh it and then repost the link

is it this rack??

I'd replace the vca with a quadcascading one such as veils, if you can and the filter with something smaller - doepfer perhaps - and add a kinks - and possibly a disting if it will fit

utilities more important you already have 2 modulation sources - tides and maths

just checking, but you are triggering the 2hp module from pam's aren't you?
and you are sure you plugged it in correctly?

the 2hp euclid module outputs +5v for 6ms - check the mom manual for how long it needs too be triggered?
pams outputs also +5v, but buffered

do you have a buffered mult? - you could try that - I have a few modules that Maths doesn't trigger for until it goes through a buffer

I'd go as minimal as possible to start with - probably just some ways to sequence and combine triggers - unity mixers, switched multiples* and gate/trigger combiners etc - and a trig31

get that working how you want and then consider adding a sound source

how are you mixing/listening?

*this is contentious - you shouldn't use multiples as mixers - bad, bad practice - it will work until it fries your expensive module - but if you only ever use your switched multiple for this purpose then it works

can't you do that with Pam's anyway? definitely has euclidean

it's possible that mom needs hotter triggers - so you'd need an amplifier - do you have anything else that can do that - veils r intellijel quad vca perhaps?

which euclidean sequencer is it - does it need a clock? or do you need to switch on an internal clock?

starting with which modules you want and the modules you need to support them and leaving some space for expansion would probably be a good idea - a couple of mantises will work perfectly in that regard - start with one and add a minimum viable system and get to know that first - then proceed with the rest of the modules one or 2 at a time

I would suggest you add some more information - what sort of music you want to make with the modular and which modules are 'keepers' in this rack

then one or more of us can rip it apart and you'll end up in a better place - there are some obvious questions too - why do you need 2 trig31s? and 3 passive mults?

Thanks for the responses everyone – learning a lot.
The point about utilities being the secret sauce of modular is interesting. I guess, like Nick said, its hard to grasp at first because unlike oscillators, samplers, filters, envelopes, LFOs etc, 'utilities' don't really exist in the conventional world of music and are unique to modular (to my limited knowledge).

They are mostly hidden

I'm pretty committed to 2 x 84 HP, just because I don't have a lot of space, and want to keep the arrangement of gear on the desk relatively flexible. Also I don't plan on building a massive collection of modules, I'll probably buy/sell stuff until I have a setup I'm happy with, but who knows... If I do eventually want to go bigger I'll probably just get another 2 x 84. Also I think I want to stick with eurorack because I'm not too interested in building a conventional synth – I like the range of unique stuff in eurorack.

104hp is 10cm wider - depending on the case a mantis may only be 8cm or s wider as it has very thin sides

I live in Australia which has unbalanced mains power. How much of a factor is noise? I've read that modules tend to put out a pretty hot signal, but yeah I might just follow Jim's advice and try without, then attenuate, then balance. I'm only running it into either an octatrack or external soundcard.

good luck!!! - are the inputs balanced or unbalanced on the octatrack and sound card????? if so then you may want a balanced output!

hot doesn't have anything to to with balanced - it just means the peak to peak of the voltage is higher than line level

Re VCAs: what's the difference between a VCA and an envelope/LFO module? also VCA vs attenuator?

a VCA is a voltage controlled amplifier, although most only have unity gain, so are technically attenuators and not amplifiers

you send a signal (audio or cv) through the VCA and control the amount of the signal let through with an envelope or lfo

attenuator is manually controlled - vcas may also be able to be manually controlled

Definitely not something I would want to play with!

TOP ROW
Plaits, nRings, Monsoon - personally I would go all original and I would hold out for a beads - better ergonomics and Emilie gets paid!!!

I'd dump the doepfer mixer and get a second quad vca (veils is really good!)

The filter is fucking huge!!!! way too big in a case this size find something smaller

Unity Mixer I would replace with Links - depending on how you use it there are up to 2 buffered mults, a precision adder, and 2 mixers - in 4hp!

TM - if you are going to use this you need to get a quantizer too (I suspect you want to use this to transpose the minibrute sequencer) no quantizer means no need for precision adders...

BOTTOM ROW
attenuator - Hasn't the Dreadbox WL series been discontinued? you could swap for a 2hp trim (or get a bigger module that is easier to use - shades perhaps (will also double as a precision adder)

Slew Limiter - find the space for Maths or Rampage or a DUSG - you will get a thousand times more mileage out of one of these (especially Maths with it's brilliant illustrated manual - 32 self patching examples)

Precision Adder - you probably won't use bus access and precision adding can be done elsewhere

VCADSR - again huge - find something that does the same job but smaller - 8hp or so - or go for stages which can do more interesting envelopes and much more - make sure it will work with triggers as well as gates - you don't have a lot of gate sources and some ADSR type modules only work when they are held open - triggers only last a few ms

DADSR - ok - again make sure it will work with triggers as well as gates

Disting EX - ok

seq switch - ok

passive mult - get stackcables or headphone splitters

is that the wk1 or the wk1 aroom mod? aroom mod and you need no other precision adders - as you can transpose 3 voct signals at at a time

clock divider - ok

batumi - ok but seriously consider the expander (or diying one) so you can switch the assignable waveform easily

scale - see above, the attenuator - shades will also cover this

logic - I would replace this with kinks - logic, noise, sample and hold and rectification in 4hp

midi interface - won't the minibrute do this?????

vca - I wouldn't bother unless you need another one after replacing the mixer with a quad cascading vca

GENERAL
your idea of stereo audio path is not quite true plaits is not stereo it is dual mono (as is the filter - a couple of doepfer SEM filters could replace this in less space) - 2 different signals - rings is stereo ish - depending on the setting! and both have vcas built in - so you really need the vcas for modulation and not audio!

also no way of moving audio in the stereo field - where is the panning???

I'd add an fx aid xl aswell!

always remember you don't have to fill the case in one go

if you don't want to create a personalized self-designed musical instrument then you are probably better off with a poly-synth - not a modular!

I started out with a absolutely tiny 72hp 6u case - within 6 months it was almost full and the next module I wanted wouldn't fit - so I bought a 6u 204hp case (mantis) and moved everything to that - when that was full - i used the original case too - and when that was full I built myself one, I now have 4 diy cases - but if I'd bought the larger case to start with I may still only have 208hp - not 1500hp - as I wouldn't have run out of space when the module I wanted was too big!!!!!

176hp is still very small - I'd call my 1500hp: medium to large

I am not necessarily saying don't get a small case - I'm saying work out what modules you want and what you need to get them to work properly (plus some room for expansion) and then work out the case to fit it

the problem with starting with a small case (as highlighted by @ModLifeCrisis) is that the modular you want may not fit in the case - so you will end up buying more cases (which are comparatively more expensive)

the best way to start a modular is to get an idea of what modules you want and which modules are needed to support those modules (yes you probably do need vcas, mixers, envelope generators, etc etc etc) add 30% for expansion and then find the case too fit

starting with a tiny case almost always means that many more compromises have to be made - it's your personal, self-designed musical instrument - do you really want to make it a compromise??????????????????????

@nickgreenberg - if you include sequencers and mixers as utilities, which I do in this case - then you are probably spot on with my guideline

re audio outputs - depending on where you are in the world they may be completely unnecessary - I live in Europe where we have balanced mains power - so I have never used one - straight out to external mixer/speakers/es8 - always try without first unless you know you need a balanced output (not all outputs are balanced!) - start with nothing, then try attenuators (or vcas) and then finally try an output module.. no point planning to buy something you may not need, unless you do!

Not directly quoting Jim
-- Mazz

you can quote me anytime - RTFM!

and to quote myself
"Utilities are the inexpensive, dull polish that makes the shiny, expensive modules actually shine and stops them tarnishing!"

for about the same price you can get a doepfer lc6 - or for a bit more an lc9 - these are both significantly better starter cases than the beauty cases you are aspiring to... get one of those if you need to fit it in your handbag once you actually know what you are doing.. but start with a case you won't be replacing in 3-6 months!

it is not just missing vcas it is missing all utility modules - whilst you may be able to get a limited range of sounds out of this I suspect it will not meet your expectations

add a quad cascading vca (veils for example) and a basic starter utility set of links/kinks/shades and put it all in a 6u or 9u case

you will then have room for expansion when you realise that you are missing lots of things you need/want in order for the modular to be worthwhile

otherwise dump blades and/or morphagene - replace blades with a smaller filter - to make space for some utilities

the same could be said for maths - but - working your way through the illustrated manual a few times is a very good learning experience!

you can try it but I think the volume coming into the rack will be too low and it will be too high coming out - you coould try veils which has 20db of gain available and a passive attenuator - or a dedicated i/o module, if you have issues

using MS20 for modulation will probably work - depending on the signal - may need attenuation or amplification to get it where you want it!

links/kinks/shades are not cv sources (well there is one in the bottom 1/3rd of kinks)- they modify cv

Maths is a great modulation source especially if you work your way through the illustrated manual a good few times - great intro to patching (and self -patching) modules

if you think : sound sources < sound modifiers < modulation sources < utilities

remembering that a sound source may be 1-n vcos or a complete voice

you'll be on a right track

modulation and utilities are where the 'secret sauce' in modular is hidden not in the cool shiny modules

how would you use more than 1 mixer: sub-mixer for audio -> filter -> vca -> main mixer (to combine with other voices), matrix mixer (can do send/return or modulation mixing etc) - you need more than just a final stage mixer!!!!

I have a rebel technology mix02 and a tesseract modular tex-mix for stereo mixing - both are fine - remember that you will probably need more channels in the future - tex-mix is good a god option as it is expandable!!! - currently mine has 8 mono channels and 4 stereo channels - I expect to add at least 8 more mono and maybe 4 more stereo channels + direct outs for recording - which will have cost about €500 in total - I diy them from full kits - all smd done already!

EDITED May 10th 2021, 12:58

I would skip the small case and go straight to the larger one - this is probably almost unusable for what you want - audio levels will be wrong for starters and there is no modulation or utility modules to leverage the effects you have into anything other than static effects - unless you turn knobs manually - which is a great idea, but you loose the interesting parts of modular - complex modulation

I'd also consider mono/stereo issues

Personally I'd always want a vco and lfo in a modular, even if it were predominatly for effects - something cheap and analogue will do nicely - doepfer basic vco for example!

you need mixers, vcas, envelope generators etc

redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing - there are multiple functions that you will want more of than you think - vcas/mixers/attenuators - as they are incredibly useful for both audio and modulation

you need vcas sooner rather than later - I would go for a quad cascading one - veils perhaps

voltage block is already quantized though so you can drop the separate addac quantizer

something else missing is utility modules - these are probably more important than voices (although you need voices) as they will allow you to merge, modify and multiply modulation sources - and therefore make them more interesting

I would recommend - links, kinks and shades as a good starter set - other modules are available that will do the same thing - but for the price and size it's hard to beat these - wmd/ssf toolbox might be a good alternative to some functionality along with other modules to cover the rest - but don't underestimate doepfer for utilities - they are often exceptional value for money

also that roland env gen/lfo is quite big for what it is - maybe batumi and/or zadar would fit better - especially in a 9u case (good case choice btw!)

EDITED May 10th 2021, 10:28

fx - get an fx aid xl

they are incredibly versatile and good value for money - get the xl for more modulation and btter ergonomics

Rene always strikes me as more hands on than hermod - I would read the manuals for both carefully and watch some videos before buying one or the other

by the time you take into account 4 guitars and a bass, fx pedals etc, I'm probably way over that

my modular is a combined audio video synthesizer

if i remember rightly you can use the bsp as a midi interface - but I might be mistaken - I have one but never tried to use it for that = definitely woorth checking the manual

I need more envelopes - I'm thinking Zadar (when available) AND the Doepfer a-143-1

Congratulations on your new case!

If you haven't bought the mutable clones yet - I would be seriously tempted to go for the originals
you have a lot more space in the mantis compared to your original rack - they don't cost a lot more in most cases and are significantly more ergonomic than a majority of the clones

there are 4-6 voices in there already (the plaits, rings, clouds clones and disting - 5 if you include maths - and 6 if you include the marbles clone!!!) - I would concentrate on modulation and utilities for supporting these modules rather than adding a 6th voice - links, kinks and shades make a great starter utility set for example - I'd definitely also want more envelope generators (get a quad - maybe zadar? and batumi) - and more vcas (veils is great) - and a better end of chain mixer (I use a tex-mix which is excellent value for money and expandable - and easily diy-able if you can solder) - maybe also a nice effects unit - fx aid xl is great value and decent ergonomically and modulation wise

re filling the case - that's what I thought when I bought my first case - 6 months later I bought a second case - 4.5 years later I have 1500hp with enough space free for my diy backlog!

should do - as long as it is an analog clock divider, which I think the doepfer is

I often use a dreadbox div to do the same thing - although usually I use a square wave from the oscillator too - og tides high/low outputs as the input to the divider

/2 = - 1 octave
/4 = - 2 octaves

you could replace the 4ms and Batumi to a large extent with Pams - Pams and Marbles is a good combination

this is indeed true but ladik are direct sales only - I've been living in a city with a doepfer dealer though! soon too change...

generally I agree with @troux but there's a few things I'd change:

veils instead of the doepfer vca
compare 2 over cold mac
pams instead of the varigate and the dot

I'd watch out for mixing too - if you can cram a utility mixer in for the drums it might be a good idea

personally I'd go for a bigger case - and maybe fill 1/2 - remember the keystep outputs cv too so not so much need for midi -> cv

what are you trying to do with this?

never underestimate doepfer especially for utilities

basically there are a few approaches

some people group by functionality, some people by voice, some people by most used, some left to right, some top to bottom

it's mostly a matter of which one works best for you though!

I think Maths is quite easy to understand actually at it's most basic it's just 2 function generators and a mixer - definitely worthwhile and even more so if you work your way through the illustrated manual a couple of times

never enough mixers or vcas!

sounds like a vc trigger/gate delay would be useful to add some swing!

try mixing and then sending through a reverb or delay - it'll help gel them together - maybe surface is best through filter first, though!

you might find you like surface more when you have more modulation and it is more 'in the mix' with more voices

personally I've never used a sequencer for cv - I find lfos, function generators, sample and hold and envelopes work better for me

quantizers are very useful if your main sequencer is not quantized - just like mixers and audio interfaces and vcas - get more channels than you think you need now so that you don't run out quickly in the future!

yeah - that's the one I thought - not on modulargrid yet

between the hermod and the mixer you need voices - vco/vcf/vcas/modulation/envelope generators etc etc and probably some sub mixers for both audio and control voltages - and after the mixer you need an audio interface to connect to your computer

I hope this what you were expecting!

it's probably not much more difficult than plugging the cable in and a tiny bit if menu diving to get a midi keybooard to cnnect too the hermod etc - I think the manual was decent when I was looking - so that's probably a good place to start

can you post a link to the mixer? what is the full chain you are intending on using?

well we often think the same about our colonial brethren - no international shipping is common everywhere

the thing you might want most is a filter - whilst plaits has one built in, it's a good idea to get used to using one and willl give you more flexibility - also I'd get the utilities I mentioned (or similar) earlier rather than later - they'll help you get your head round patching more, especially combined with working your way through the maths illustrated manual a few times

if you want more control you might to look at things like metropolis/metropolix or the ryk m-185 or the tesseract step fader - the latter will use your pre-existing quantizer and is cheaper, but also lacks memory

hahaha typo - I meant beads!

Hi and welcome

if you have a BSP for sequencing I would not start with the nifty or any other case that has any built in midi-cv conversion - you do not need it

I would get either the mantis (if you can find one) or the doepfer lc9 instead - these are better value for money

I think the module choice (especially with the BSP) is a good start I would swap out the disting for the newer version and the pico dsp for a fx aid xl (similar but more varied and with better ergonomics and more modulation inputs)

you could consider dropping batumi and possibly Pams even, at least, to start with - you have enough with the Maths I think to start

I'd go for veils over the intellijel quad vca, but that's mostly taste

I'd add mutable instruments links and kinks and something like shades (there are a lot of similar modules) as they are incredibly helpful in patching and to grab a few stackcables or headphone splitters to use as passive mults

if you are not going to fill the case in 1 go I would recommend using blind panels (cereal box card is fine) to stop unwanted metal objects (loose dangling cables for instance) shorting out the power etc

triplatt or shades or similar - but definitely links and kinks

adding veils too is a great idea

Data I've always kind of wanted one since they came out but they have never been in stock anywhere - I saw one in stock last night at a online store and I decided not to buy it - I'd rather spend the money (and rack space) on other things - I have a DC coupled interface so I can use vcvrack if I want to as an oscilloscope - and if I bought an oscilloscpe I would want to be able to see video rate wave forms and I'm not sure that Data can do that

sequencers - do you want a v/oct sequencer, a gate/trigger sequencer or both (separately or in a single module)? euclidean usually refers to trigger/gate sequencing
PNW is not so menu divey it's annoying if you can see the screen and does both euclidean and random quantized loops for v/oct
if you want more control over the tune you might want to look at Rene - but it is significantly more complex - other possibilities to look at might be klee (a very long shot - as I've never seen one for sale only DIY and not often then) and the frap tools usta (but note it is very expensive)

is this a 'dream' rack - I'm not sure I'd want to play with it too much though
not enough modulation or utilities and 3 modules that are similar and large - probably better too get oone and see if you desperately need the others
if you are convinced you need beaks, morphagene and clouds - I would get another row for modulation and utilities

yeah I find I loose things like that though - would much rather have modules

but a lot more expensive and power draining